Updating post from Reddit.
Lodger is demanding deposit back before leaving and is refusing to pay any further rent (its due today). I am now extremely uncomfortable and don't want her in my home anymore so have asked her to leave tomorrow. Unless I am misinterpreting this, she has said something like 'I'm staying another 3 weeks and I won't pay any further' she's ESL so maybe i am misundestanding?
[01/07/2025, 20:41:36] NOBODY: Regarding the deposit, I’ll have to request the full months rent and if you send me your details I’ll return it to you provided there’s no damage
[01/07/2025, 21:00:03] lodger: Seriously !
As long as there is no damage!!
You can't see how well I handle everything.
I even leave the door open and you use what you need.
[01/07/2025, 21:00:25] NOBODY: I’m sorry but that’s how is works in the UK, deposit is returned after move out
[01/07/2025, 21:04:51] lodger: I know how it works in the UK.
I rented a house for 5 years.
I'll pay the difference today, right?
That's what I'll do.
Thanks .
[01/07/2025, 21:07:10] NOBODY: If you leave your bank details I can return it, if it’s immaculate I can refund it to you, there’s no need to panic
[01/07/2025, 21:14:37] lodger: I'm not panicking, .
I don't know what you mean by flawless...
There are signs of use, nothing more.
I don't think it's fair for you to act like this.
I'll pay the difference and everything will be fine.
[01/07/2025, 21:15:06] NOBODY: I’m sorry but I must insist on the full rent payment, and I can return the money after you leave
[01/07/2025, 21:18:03] NOBODY: it’s also insurance in case you left later, for example, not just for damages
[01/07/2025, 21:18:50] lodger: Look, you don't need to send me the laws, I know.
but that's with a contract, which is not the case.
[01/07/2025, 21:19:33] NOBODY: Sorry, there’s nothing I can do
[01/07/2025, 21:20:02] NOBODY: I didn’t agree to return the deposit before you left
[01/07/2025, 21:21:00] NOBODY: I’m not saying I will keep the deposit, I just need it in case
[01/07/2025, 21:21:08] lodger: I joined on the 1st and I'll leave on the 31st or the 1st.
I'm not going to stay any longer.
And if I did, I'd pay separately.
I wouldn't run away.
[01/07/2025, 21:21:43] NOBODY: please leave £625, this is the end of the matter for me, and i will return your deposit after you leave to the bank details you provided. Thanks
[01/07/2025, 21:25:10] lodger: In case what happens ... I won't mess up the room now, I'll even leave some things here.
[01/07/2025, 21:25:36] NOBODY: if you want to leave £225 are you able to leave on the 10th?
[01/07/2025, 21:29:03] lodger: I'm not leaving on the 10th, it's my right to stay until the end of the month.
I don't want to talk about anymore.
I've rented rooms before and I've always done it that way.
[01/07/2025, 21:29:17] NOBODY: Sorry but I must ask for the £625
[01/07/2025, 21:30:12] NOBODY: I have rented rooms for the last 3 years and always done it this way
[01/07/2025, 21:32:36] lodger: Look , I don't want to go through with this.
I've always been kind and fair to you.
I don't deserve what you're doing.
If you don't want the difference, that's fine.
I'll give you 225 at the end of the month and that's it.
[01/07/2025, 21:33:28] NOBODY: then you will have to leave on the 10th
[01/07/2025, 21:33:51] NOBODY: I will return the deposit but after you leave
[01/07/2025, 21:36:00] lodger: For me to leave on the 10th, you are the one who has to give me back the money.
[01/07/2025, 21:36:20] NOBODY: i think this is the end of the discussion now. Thanks lodger
[01/07/2025, 21:42:32] lodger: I can leave on July 20th.
I won't pay you any more and you won't pay me back.
That can be the case, if you want.
Thanks, .
tell me.
[01/07/2025, 21:43:02] NOBODY: this is the end of the discussion
[01/07/2025, 21:44:29] lodger: No , I need to know when it came out, I have my stuff.
[01/07/2025, 21:52:29] NOBODY: you will get your deposit back, but after you move out
[01/07/2025, 21:54:22] : I don't know why you're doing this.
I don't have any money here anymore.
I just have money from my day-to-day work.
[01/07/2025, 21:55:12] NOBODY: im not doing anything , this was the agreement
[01/07/2025, 21:57:18] lodger: No, the agreement was, 400 down payment that would be returned later, it was not agreed how.
It was not even discussed, ok.
[01/07/2025, 21:58:54] lodger: Well, I don't want to talk about it anymore.
I left on July 20th.
and you don't return anything and I don't pay anything anymore.
OK, I'm not going to talk about it anymore.
[01/07/2025, 22:00:16] lodger: And don't worry, I'm not dangerous.
I'm just a mother who wants to go home in peace.
ME: if you can't pay, please leave tomorrow
Generally with a lodger if there is a fundamental breach they leave immediately. No rent = terminate tenancy and pass their possessions out through window.
is that legal?
Yes of course, it is your home (not in Scotland).
I would, uh, double check this answer…
Does your lodger agreement clearly states that the deposit is not to be used a rent in lieu of last month's rent ? If not, in the future, best to do that. Or also state rent may not be witheld with the reason being there is the deposit as cover , or something along the lines / to that effect.
These lodgers don't understand how things work....
I don't know, I'm usually seeing things from the landlord perspective, but I don't like how you handled this. She is clearly sensitive about being screwed out of her deposit, you could have just offered to return her the money as she leaves which would have probably defused the situation. She mentions she leaves the door open so you have a reasonable idea of the condition already - so you could do a check while she is there. Giving her the money as she leaves seems like the golden rule solution ("Do unto others"). Instead you decided to act like a big bank after they freeze your account.
Probably the thing that's lost in communication. It sounds like she is foreign. Many foreign people have the impression that British people act polite but are scared to say things to their face. So given she can't imagine a logical reason for you to want to withhold the deposit for days after she leaves, she assumes that you are too scared to screw her to her face, so you want to leave on friendly terms and then send her a text message with a list of nitpicky issues why you are not giving her the deposit back. I'm guessing on your side, either you do want to screw her in this way (easy test, what % of the time have you returned the deposit in full?), or you want to enforce the way "this is how [you think] it should be / these are the rules" for no real reason. Either way, its a bit hard to defuse now because "This is how we do things in the UK" was probably translated in her head as "In the UK we hold your deposit for no reason, then tell you didn't clean well enough and charge you £150 cleaning fee"
lol, so many assumptions you make.
First and foremost, deposit is to be returned once the place has been fully vacated and the LL has the opportunity to perform a thorough check / inspection. That is always the rule. So OP is correct. Nothing else matters.
Im a Landlord with lodgers and have had them for years.
I let me lodgers use their deposit as their last two weeks rent
If relations have broken down (it’s happened twice in 25 years. One an alcoholic. One has mental health issues) then it becomes a lot more complicated.
I think in the OPs case trust has gone on both sides. Tbh I’d be saying in this scenario I will give you your deposit in cash at the front door when I get your key
Id also immediately change locks once they’ve gone.
That gives them the reassurance they’ve lost.
If you say deposit back after they’ve left yes that makes sense but I don’t think they’d believe you and that could cause them to become even more trouble.
It’s worked both times for me so that’s just my opinion
Probably you didn't read what I wrote, its reddit I guess. But understanding the crux of the situation matters.
Of course the check / inspection has to be done after the room is packed up and before the deposit is returned (duh)- that isn't the question here. The lodger just doesn't want her deposit held after she leaves so he/she can nitpick over sms about returning the deposit. From the original post they have no contract, so of course she finds it strange to start talking like a bank or property manager about processing the deposit return x days later.
Put simply, the question is about the timing of said inspection and subsequent return of money.
So the solution is to walk the room after she is all packed and return the deposit to her as she leaves. We manage a bunch of properties, and would be more than happy to do this for a good tenant that was very nervous / short of money. When I was young, I was also a lodger and this was the way my deposit was returned most of the time. So no I don't think re-stating a semi related fact that everyone knows about helps you get to the best solution here.
Now you might say - "oh but she has no right to demand that", and yes, she has no "right" to demand that. But is it the way I would like to be treated if I was in her shoes? probably yes. Is it good business to make reasonable accommodations for good tenants? Also yes.
making assumptions again i see. I did read what you wrote in full.
OP has already communicated what the process of returning the deposit is, then I don't see any reason why the lodger would respond like that as it it would make the situation any better.
With that kind of response, I wouldn't deem the lodger to be 'good'.
Assumption - a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof.
The key word in my sentence is "probably". This means its not an assumption. If I said, "You didn't read my post", that would be an assumption.
Anyway I'll assume (there we go) you are also a landlord and this is just a professional difference in how you and I operate. But I'm not convinced taking a hardline on an issue that isn't laid out contractually for no obvious benefit is a good way to do business. We seem to operate in a different world, but part of the job is defusing these types of situations without compromising ourselves financially. Firm but fair (both words are important).
As an aside, you can see the escalation points in the discussion where it could have been defused, but wasn't:
Its factually correct, but I caveating "provided there's no damage" is pointless and started the escalating trend. I would have said. "I know you've kept it in great condition, so ill just double check the room and you'll get it back within 2 days".
Invoking "not how it works in the UK" likely to rile up the other side. It is implying they don't know the local customs, vs. they know the customs and have a different view. Kind of like how it might have annoyed you when I said you probably haven't read my post.
Immaculate suggests deposit is likely to be witheld at least partially. It certainly isn't the legal standard for the condition a rental unit should be returned in. Panic is also a dismisive word - likely to escalate rather than de-escalate. Consistent use of 'can' vs 'will' also has some negative signalling - she knows they can, is worried about if they will.
I would have said here "Ah sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that, I know you looked after the room great. It'l just take me 5 minutes to check there's no damage and the room's cleaned up and then you'll get your deposit back"
If she was still upset, at this point I would have offered the compromise. "I can see your concerned about the deposit return. I'll still need you to pay the rent for my own peace of mind. But what I can do is after you clean your room out, I'll quickly check everything is okay and give you the money immediately before you leave so neither of us have to worry."
At that point, if the situation hadn't improved I would have just sent a quick "Ah sorry, I'm just headed out / just going to sleep / just getting a phone call. Let me message you about this tomorrow to get it resolved" rather than threatening her with immediate eviction. This would be my fair attempt to resolve it - if it failed then so be it.
I think you are being very lenient and take a lot of effort in wording what you say.
Yes, some of the suggested wording would be helpful to pander to the lodger, but i don't think OP 'escalated' and you seem to kinda try to put the blame on OP instead of how the lodger doesn't understand what the deposit is meant for and therefore, when it will be returned.
using your example 1, it is definitely right to say 'provided no damages' and is not pointless, it is exactly the conditions required for the deposit return. I don't know how any reasonable person would deem that as an 'escalation'. If OP said what you recommended, they are on the hook for stating 'kept in great condition'. How do you know that ? Did OP perform regular room inspection in order to make that statement ?
Nitpicking on wording of 'can instead of will' used by OP is just next level. You are just reading too much into it. The only point i agree with you is the immaculate wording shouldn't be used as that is not accurate.
Not lenient, but definitely I am very careful with how I word things. After doing a lot of reps with tenants, employees etc. I noticed people do read into these micro signals, especially when they are stressed. I've often screwed up sending a clumsily worded message myself.
On the example you've mentioned. They are not on the hook for stating kept in great condition. If there was damage, they would just say "this is damage" and that would be it.
But let me give you an example that will maybe make it clearer and I think will illustrate the overall point. You are going into a surgery, the surgeon says to you "Okay, I'll see you after the surgery in 2 hours, as long as everything goes well and your not one of the 1% that don't make it through". Why is this not something surgeons say, even if its perfectly true? Because people read into when you add caveats, and when you don't, and your decision to add the caveat reveals something about your intent. The sum of all these little micro signals certainly adds up. I agree with you that any one of these things (other than immaculate) wouldn't be a problem individually - but added together it creates an effect.
What would change my opinion? If the landlord and the tenant had a clear written agreement that outlined the terms of the deposit and deposit return. If that was true, then I would be much more aligned with your position.
I used to be the other way, talk tough but behave nicely, and I found it doesn't work. Talking tough and being tough puts you in an adversarial relationship with everyone and also doesn't work. Talking nice (its free) and acting tough, seems to be the most effective combination. I save my talking tough for reddit :P
Anyway, I enjoyed this exchange. Thank you
You return the deposit after they have left by default. You have no obligation to return it earlier, the deposit is there to protect you.
If she won't pay you the rent as a lodger then you change the locks and move her stuff outside. She has no rights to be in the property if she won't pay.
However, I have returned deposits early for the ease of keeping a good relationship until they leave, and to get them out quicker.
this, agreed with you.
You would still have an obligation to safely keep their property until it can be collected
Landlords historically abused deposits and made excuses for keeping them. Their idea was that the tenant couldn’t do anything about it practically. Using deposits for the last month’s rent became commonplace because of that.
Then the government introduced protection for deposits for tenants. Sometimes landlords still try abusing that, but the deposit scheme generally means they lose out.
Here there is no deposit scheme and you have the old approach, but with someone in your home. In your position I would not risk trouble even for that rather substantial lodging fee.
Demanding her space is immaculate before you give back deposit is ridiculous and shady. Go and have a word with yourself you fool.
So you got a lodger without any contract and now are trying to randomly impose arbitrary terms?
You didn’t create a contract. Kinda your fault this is happening.
Many lodgers contracts work where deposit is used as last months rent. Your lodger may have assumed this if they have experienced this before.
Why do you need to wait until they leave to check the state of the room? With a lodger you can check the room before they leave…. Surely you will be able to see any damage? (You asked for it to be ‘immaculate’ - that’s not reasonable. Depending on how long they’ve been there, they should still get deposit back if there are signs of use/wear/tear as that’s to be expected. Especially if you put cheap furniture in there…)
Yes, you can ask them to leave earlier/change the locks - though only if they are an excluded occupier. But have you thought maybe the lodger doesn’t have the money to pay you another month because they assumed the deposit would be used? Lodgers are often on the breadline and they may have had to use money for a deposit elsewhere.
You have how you CAN act legally. But if they have been a good lodger, why not treat them with kindness? You can always check the state of the room now and keep checking periodically before they go. You literally live in the same property.. it’s not like they could trash the room and you’d have no idea, right?
I’ve only known ever shady tenants / lodgers who think they can use the deposit as the last month’s rent. It’s called a ‘damage’ deposit for a reason.
What if OP moves the bed once the lodger leaves and the carpet has been burned with an iron and needs replacing?
Imo, the lodger knows they won’t get their deposit back for something they have done, and are trying to rip off OP.
But it’s not always a deposit for damage. It’s also a way of landlord preventing loss if patient suddenly decides to leave without notice, even leaving the room full of their stuff. It’s actually very common for lodgers to use this as last months rent - and is often set out in some contracts by the landlord. Again, this is about lodgers, not house shares or private renting.
Personally, I’ve known bad tenants, but also known bad landlords. Probably more of the latter. In this case the landlord didn’t even bother with any sort of lodgers contract or agreement… so of course I’m not going to assume they’re a great landlord! And in my opinion they have brought this issue on themselves by not having a contract. It’s the landlord that has created this problem, not the lodger. It should be a good learning point for the landlord for future… yet they are trying to place blame on the lodger. Is the lodger being cheeky? Maybe. But they can only do so because the landlord was too lazy to sort a contract out!
From your comment, I’m not sure you’re familiar with lodgers. A lodger literally lives with the landlord. Most lodgers rooms are furnished and they wouldn’t move furniture. I think if the landlord went in and all the furniture had been moved or there were suddenly rugs on the floor then you would be suspicious! Like.. just use your common sense. Most lodgers have a bedroom only and would have access to kitchen/lounge area of house to do things like ironing there (otherwise if they don’t have shared access to house they aren’t an excluded occupier…). It’s not the same as private renting..
FYI - I have been a lodger and also have had lodgers.
wear & tear bud
You reckon? I'd personally say burning a hole in the carpet with an iron goes a fair bit beyond wear and tear and is into the realms of negligent damage.
The way I look at it is how you'd react if a friend did it in your house. Is it a "yeah, that's a thing that happens" or a "dude, what the hell are you doing?" If it's the latter, it's probably not wear and tear. I can't imagine an iron burn on the carpet being anything other than someone being a moron, and if you've damaged something by being a moron you should probably pay for it.
Yeh wear and tear would be the carpet looking like it was more worn, its in the name. Not fucked.
Are you sure she is a lodger? Going by your messaging back and forth, she speaks like a renter.
Or she thinks the same rules apply and doesn't realise OP can likely dump their shit outside and change the locks.
Are you expecting to need to retain any deposit?
This is why it should be
Duh.
Just return the deposit on the day they leave. And let them know thats the case. Sounds like you're not using a deposit protection scheme, which is designed to avoid this.
deposit protection scheme is not required for a lodger.