Updating post from Reddit.
In England, had a tenant in for four months who has just today notified me of mouse droppings under the kitchen sink. I have never seen or heard of any droppings previously.
They are threatening to take me to court for the entirety of their rent paid so far, and demanding I let them out of the contract early and for free, quoting that ‘legally rodents fall under the fit of habitation in renting a property out’, and that they are not required to identify issues with the house, that I should have already known. As far as I’m aware this is a new problem.
Additional info, they have two dogs, whose food may have attracted the pests? Recently had work done prior to the tenant moving in, which may have been an entry point for them. I’ve said I’ll be over on Monday to assess and will call in pest control.
Complaining about the noise of neighbours, I’ve previously put in soundproofing to help with this issue prior to their move in date.
I’m fairly new to this, they’ve had a couple of issues prior which I’ve always responded to ASAP, I feel they are trying to take advantage, as I’ve been quite lenient/accommodating in the past . Has anyone got any experience with this issue, or can weigh in on where I stand?
Thanks!
not a lawyer but as a landlord you’re only required to act once you’ve been made aware of a problem like pests. you’ve offered to visit and get pest control involved so you’ve done what’s expected under the fitness for human habitation rules.
they can’t just ask for all their rent back unless they can prove the place was unlivable the whole time and you ignored it, which doesn’t sound like the case here.
claiming £10k back over a few droppings is a stretch. at most a court might reduce rent a bit if you ignored it for ages, but you didn’t.
sounds like they’re trying to use this to get out of the tenancy early without paying. just keep records of what you’ve done and don’t let them pressure you into anything.
Yes, seems like it. Previously we had agreed I would let them out of the contract early but they would pay the cost of finding new tenants, and the time in between if that total was lower than the contractual payments for early termination.
One week before they’re due to leave, they start this up. 🤨
yeah that timing says a lot. sounds like they’re trying to wriggle out of paying what was already agreed just by throwing some last minute drama at you. you’ve got the agreement in place and you’re handling the pest issue, so they’ve got no real case here. keep everything in writing and don’t let them change the terms now just because it suits them.
Doesn't sound like you're letting them out the contract at all?
They're right they shouldn't have to pay for your mouse infested place. Get it cleaned up if you want to let it out to anyone.
they’re already getting let out early with barely any cost and now they’re pulling the mouse card a week before leaving. funny how it was never mentioned until it’s time to pay. if it was that bad they’d have said something months ago. looks more like they’re trying to dodge what they owe than anything actually wrong with the place, smells more like bullshit than droppings.
Pipe down
If you want to profit off the labour of someone who actually has a job just because you own a property, you need to follow the rules if it turns out your place has a rodent infestation.
The fact the tenant had dogs means it's even less likely they're responsible for the rodents.
Sorry for saying the truth - this landlord clearly didn't keep their property well enough and the tenant shouldn't have to pay any rent.
You’re talking absolute nonsense and from a place of sheer emotion and ignorance. If you have nothing valuable or useful to add I defer to my earlier comment.
funny how it’s always the ones banging on about landlords and exploitation who forget how agreements work the second money’s involved. nothing said for months, then suddenly it’s an emergency when the bill’s due. you can practically smell the unwashed righteousness through the screen.
Found the tenant.
This is a community for Landlords. You can be anti-landlord in other places like /r/HousingUK/
Tell them to take you to court, lol. They wont win "paid back rent"...
Yes, seemed like a scare tactic. As I said I’m fairly new to this, however what I’ve read online and heard here seems to prove it’s a bluff.
As a tenant it baffles me how some can be arsehats to LLs
A bit of respect doesn't go a miss.
Look at getting rid of this tenant asap, ie when tenancy is up, get em out. Serve them notice. They'll just cause you problems going forward.
Probably as many of us they have had several bad landlords who drag their heels.
One of my tenants had this issue. My letting agent got out pest control. Sorted no problem. How deep do tenants think the walls go 😂
No idea 🤣 it’s a good lesson if nothing else
Let them out of their contract. You want rid of them as soon as possible as they sound like nightmare tenants. Of course they can't claim their rent back as soon as they let you know of an issue. They'd struggle if you did nothing for moths. That's not how it works! Get it cleaned up, get a pest control man there, then ask them when they plan to leave.....!!
Previously we had agreed I would let them out of the contract early but they would pay the cost of finding new tenants, and the time in between if that total was lower than the contractual payments for early termination.
One week before they’re due to leave, they start this up. 🤨it does seem like an easy way out, however with the short term of the tenancy, and the costs of finding two tenants, and the downtime in between this will cost me a fair amount.
Stick to your guns as far as you can. They need to learn about actions and consequences. If they hadn't started this late braking news about mouse droppings, you might have been minded to let them go without finder's costs. Now, not so much.
And have you actually seen any mouse evidence yet anyway?
Going in on Monday to look along with a pest control guy I know from work.
Let them go plenty more tenants out there. No pets next time if it were me.
You cannot be blamed for rodents. They can squeeze in anywhere at any time. If I was you, I could easily sue them for not looking after the property, leaving the windows & doors for rodents.
Get rid of them, they sound a nightmare. Dont worry about court, not going to happen. Yea the dogs food is probably to blame
While I'm on the LL side on this issue, it's a leap to point fingers at what's "probably to blame". Mice will come in if there's an entry point leading to a food cupboard, not taking the trash out, or being one of these trolls that leave bin bags around the house. Sometimes they can just get in and nest there because it's convenient. Blaming dog food is just as bad as the tenant blaming the LL for a mouse.
The dog is more likely to keep rodents away, they won't hang about a sniffing cat or dog especially any terrier breed.
I work at a hdr solicitors. This wouldn’t even get past triage. Don’t worry about it trust me. Just let them go early as they seem like they are problem tenants already.
And that may be all they are after. Brinkmanship!
Based on your description, these tenants sounds like a problem and entitlement. Get rid of them asap.
Tell them if they want to leave early, they need to pay the full rent per the contract they signed.
You just need to make sure you keep written records of everything in case they do got to court (very unlikely and their case is very weak). Good luck !
Mice love dog food, it's very possible they've left it around and the mice are going insane.
You can't avoid mice entirely in this country, if you leave food around, they'll find a way in and start setting up home. Like others have said, once you get pest control in they aren't entitled to withholding rent or claiming any of it back.
Looool. They basically want to leave early and using a scare tactic. If you want rid then fine let them go.
Otherwise I would say to them feel free to sue and fix the rodent issue.
Keep all messages and Emails etc.
Yes, I’m leaning that way. It cost me a fair amount to just let them off, and I’m trying to gauge whether it’s worth the cost to just get it over with.
Don't forget to take costs for removing the rodents out of the deposit once they are gone.
Which is equally as ridiculous as the tenants blaming of the LL. Mice live amongst us and there's little you can do to avoid one coming in somewhere at some point. And that should be the OPs stance.
Tenant will just dispute it and win asking for the LL to prove the mice weren't there when they moved in, or that there's no entry point for them under the floor boards somewhere.
I would state that the house was clean with no mouse droppings when you rented it out? As they can see in the inventory.
The noisy neighbours are literally none of your business frankly.
Offer to let them out the contract early to find a place that more adequately suits your needs, these are going to be a nightmare
In the past I always made clear to tenants that any pests that occurred within the first six weeks of the tenancy I’d cover the cost of eradication/treatment. After that it was down to them.
Seems reasonable. I’ll need to make a list to add onto future contracts!
It sounds like they've heard about the Renters Rights Bill and confused it with the Law. You should fuck 'em up on the way out.
Mice happen…
They have dogs food so that’s a food source and is going to attract mice. They likely leave doors etc open so they don’t have to take the dogs out to do their business all the time.
The onus is on them to provide proof that you knew previously which is going to be hard given everything else.
Some areas are just attractive to mice. They’re not the nicest thing to find but if somewhere is kept clean and there’s no easy access to food or bedding materials the place isn’t attractive and unless you eat from the floor and don’t clean they don’t make the place uninhabitable.
In most cases of mice. The occupants have made the place attractive and easy to access. There are exceptions ofc. We had mice come up through the floor from a neighbours. We used humane traps but they kept coming. Had to use poison baited traps in the end. This would be my suggested action to limit the problem. Get the pet and child friendly ones and put them under the cupboards around the problem.
If I was you I’d be tempted to get the tenants out. Don’t pay anything back. Let them waste money if they want. They will struggle to find another place that allows pets
4 months is a long time to go without seeing evidence of a pre-existing mouse problem. You could argue as a landlord that they brought them in.
You’re doing what you’re supposed to. I’m not sure you need pest control personally but it might help tenants take notice when they’re told they caused the issue and it will return if they continue.
Don’t let them walk all over you.
It sounds to me like they want to leave early. Let them. They sound like a pain and can become someone else’s problem.
My tenant had this at my flat. I went round and found an open bag of flour lying behind a load of tins. They admitted they'd forgotten they had it from making a cake at Xmas (then July). Also complained of a flicking light- I found they'd smashed the light switch (!) and replaced it without screwing the wires in... We served them notice!
If they havent made you aware of a rodent problem before now, thats on them. They dont have a leg to stand on.
You're right, dogs can bring pests to the property if food is left out or strewn around.
Seems to me like they want to break the lease early and go somewhere else for some reason. Might be worth considering letting them do it, might be less hassle down the road.
Yes, getting a good tenant in sounds amazing! 🤣
If I were you, just pay private pest control to treat the problem. Just keep the proof. I have lived with rats and had health&safety in they are not interested. My friend defending Pocession currently, and as long as you can show u dealt with the problem within 14 days, they can't do anything. Private landlords in a strong position. He had an unfair rent rise and refused it due to a rat infestation. We have proof the landlord didn't act promptly. My mates brief said he can not use it in Court.. It costs a fortune, believe me, I've looked into suing my landlord.
Just be diligent. All they can do is request a rent reduction, which u can refuse. It your property. Remember that. Your position is a lot stronger than you think, m8. I had an Enforcement notice issues rightly he did some of the work, got it withdrawn, and has now section 21d me. Nothing I can do!
Get a private company. Ir the Council do it for 50 quid.
Call their bluff. Hire a pest control firm. Nail them for their contract.
am I alone thinking that the reason they've found 'mice' is because they want out early and don't want to pay the finders fees? If they create a stink about claiming back rents over an alleged rodent issue, they'll be hoping to alarm you enough that you'll just let them go, keeping the 10k but relieving them of the finders fee you're charging to find new early tenants.
Hell no! I'm reading down the comments and everyone's saying, oh just let them go early! so....proof the squeaking mouse wheel gets oiled first?
You've been a decent landlord, you've fixed their issues as they've spotted them, now they want back rent over mouse droppings just before they leave? Aye, they're looking for cash to sort out the next deposit and move.
Let them move on early, but absolutely do not forgive the sudden departure new tenant finders fee. No way.
Also, I hope your pest control friend can work out what a real mouse poop looks like and not say...grains of carefully scattered coffee grounds.
Don't trust them OP, they're scoundrels
In order to sue, the claimant needs to demonstrate loss. There is no loss here, therefore there is no case (not for £10,000 anyway haha)
Take the appropriate steps like you are doing, arrange a meeting, pest control etc.
Council tenant here. I've been in my house for nearly 36 years and every winter I get mice in at some point. I just buy traps or poison and deal with it myself. Council only deal with Rats.
Let them leave asap .. you don’t want tenants like this.
Sounds like a shit tenant. If theres a rodent problem, fix it and make it nice for your new tenant after you kick the current one to the curb.
If you are taking action to resolve the problem then they have no leg to stand on. This one I am not sure about but if they are unhygienic for example leaving the house/ flat dirty then see if you are legally allowed to take photos. Also check all the vents outside the building. They may have larger holes which would mean changing the vents. Most times it is the tenants fault for their problems but they refuse to accept it and blame you for not doing enough work in the property.
I’ve never had any droppings or signs of vermin before. It’s been hotter than usual recently so they may have left doors open for ventilation, allowing access.
You’ve charged them 10 grand in 4 months??
Not everybody rents out roomshares in Luton.
Better places also get let.
better places with mice, apparently.... ;)
What the fuck is that supposed to mean?
They offered to pay above the asking price as several people were interested, it’s prime location and a very nice flat, I lived there for three years myself before buying a smaller one bed just for myself to invest in property.
Still fucking stupid and a ridiculous price for a flat.
I agree, but it’s a significant investment on my part and mortgages need to be paid, service charges, tax, repairs upkeep and now obviously pest control, etc… and why would I do this all for free?
>Additional info, they have two dogs, whose food may have attracted the pests?
This isn't very plausible. There will be plenty of human food available to the mice.
Last time I had mice, they ignored the dog kibble in the bowl downstairs and were found tucking into a bar of nougat upstairs. If memory serves, the time before that it was chocolate that they chose.
Anyway, tell the tenants to take you to court. They're trying it on, and they know it.
I thought as they probably kept their dogfood under the sink, but you’re right, why go for kibble with so many other goodies!
I don't know anybody who keeps their dog food under the sink. I wouldn't want to risk contaminating it with cleaning products.
Theyve been in for 4 months and they've ready paid you 10k? Jesus fucking christ
Alternatively, they've only been in 4 months and got mice already... JFC
I agree, but it’s a significant investment on my part and mortgages need to be paid, service charges, tax, repairs upkeep and now obviously pest control, etc… and why would I do this all for free?
As I said in another comment, they offered to pay extra as others also wanted to rent it. It’s a nice flat, in a great area in a great city, and cost cost per sq meter better than a lot of places.
You should never rely on tenants to cover the mortgage. All landlords have to allow for void periods and up keep costs. Over time the property is worth n most cases increasing in value as well. Being a landlord should be seen as a long term business. Even had they stayed the length of the contract you would have had to pay the costs of finding new tenants so you are not losing that cost long term if you let them go now, you are just paying it earlier than you would have done. Maybe better to cut them loose now, you already said it’s in a popular area so should not be empty long. Landlords need to allow for these kinds of issues as costs of business.
I can pay without the rent, but it tightens the purse strings obviously. Also, prior to their moving in I had to do significant works due to previous owners cutting corners, and had some down time.
Property is now on the market again and has already had some offers.
Ridiculous. Take no notice OP. Having now been notified that the current tenants have potentially created a mouse problem, then yes simply get pest control in and issue a warning about rubbish and food stuffs being left accessible. No idea what you put in your AST about pets, but there should have been a clause about the tenants being liable for potential whole of house flea treatment at the end of tenancy if evidence of fleas exist. Now may be a time to remind them of that clause. If its filthy under the kitchen sink, the rest of the house may be filthy also.
As to breaking the contract early, entirely up to you if you want to accommodate this. You have absolutely zero obligation to even enter into any discussion over early release. They have absolutely no grounds whatsoever to pursue back rent for a rodent infestation that has clearly only commenced after several months of their tenancy and which is more probably due to their poor rubbish/food disposal/storage.
My advice, you shouldnt attend in person on monday and instead simply confirm a pest control appointment with them for next week. This isnt something tou want to get into a debate over. Theres nothing to argue over and they are wishing to simply provoke you.
Theyve now reported a rodent issue to you 4 months into their tenancy, you clearly dont live there so didnt invite them in, nor do you have a crystal ball. Less said at this stage the better OP. Its a straightforward pest control visit response. And remember, you also cant compel them to clear rubbish and food stuffs nor can you compel them to comply with what the pest control instructs them to do. So this issue may now continue.
They are not going to assist in resolving the mouse issue as long as they believe it may give them a get out of a contract they now simply want to get out of. It doesnt. And you shouldnt even humour a discussion that it may.
Thanks, that all seems like solid advice, and was echoed by others irl who I spoke to tonight who have more experience than I do!
Go tomorrow you lazy cunt, it’s someone’s house and life, not what’s convenient to you, you’re pretending being a landlord is a job which it absolutely isn’t you parasitic scum
I point them to the t&cs in the tenancy agreement regarding early surrender of the tenancy.
I’ll treat the other issues separately.
I'd flip it around. Explain that you have followed your obligations as a landlord. Further point out that in order to be successful with their claim, they would have to demonstrate that you were negligent in dealing with the issue, which they will not succeed in given how attentive you have been to their needs.
Then explain that it appears that they have failed to maintain a reasonable standard of cleanliness at the property which has allowed an infestation of vermin. As such, you will be seeking a claim against them for the cost of rectification.
Go on further to say that yes, they are right and vermin does make the property uninhabitable. Explain that you require them to vacate the property under section 8, ground 13.
Explain further that if they cooperate and leave the property in a good state of repair, they can expect full return of their deposit.
Remember, they are in your house and can make things hard for you. However, you really don't want people like this in your house so the objective is to get them out as fast and amicably as possible.
This is a shakedown.
Let them take it to court.
It'll cost them.