Updating post from Reddit.
As it says, I'm (27F) having some major issues with a new housemate I'll call Edna (61F), who has been in the property for 5+ years. I believe her contract is rolling and I know the property managers want to raise her rent, and have been informed and have previously had several complaints about her well before my arrival, but have been quite vague about what they can do. What I'd like is some guidance on what they should do for my safety, as this can't feasibly continue. I have all my housemates on board and they've sent witness statements about her behaviour. While I know I can call the police, I'd prefer not to and that won't resolve the issue of where I can safely live.
Here's a brief timeline of events and all of our interactions so far, as I've been on holiday or at my partner's house every other day:
17 April – Moved into the property. I meet one housemate, who is lovely and warns me that Edna, who I haven’t met yet, was controlling and has anger issues. I meet Edna, who told me I couldn’t leave my towels in the bathroom but didn’t specify why. She refused to exchange numbers for emergency purposes.
22 April – I turned off the hall light at night as it is very bright and I don't see the point in leaving it on if no one is walking to or from the bathroom. Rather than speak to me about this, Edna came out of her room, slammed her door, turned it on (the light is attached to my doorframe), muttered loudly and angrily outside of my door about me. My partner was with me. I felt like this was threatening and unnecessarily aggressive behaviour. The first housemate and I discuss this over text and it's part of a pattern of behaviour.
23 April – At approximately 5:30am, Edna slammed her door and woke me up. I meet another housemate, who was very kind and also warns me unprompted Edna has anger and control issues.
24 April – At approximately 5:30am, Edna slammed her door and woke me up.
7 May – I turn the light off at night. Edna repeated the same intimidating behaviour as on 22 April. She screams at me that I can't prohibit her from using the bathroom, which I'm not preventing her from doing. I just said the light doesn't need to be on all night. I tell her that’s inappropriate, she can speak to me calmly if she has an issue but that’s not the way to go about things.
8 May – While walking into our kitchen, I request that Edna apologise and say that her behaviour feels threatening and that she needs to control her anger and behavioural issues. She starts shouting at me, goes to slap me but then claps her hands together and I say that I’m scared her erratic behaviour will escalate into violence. I do not raise my voice. She shouts about being a peaceful Black woman. I tell her that we can negotiate about the light, but she isn’t interested. I have this all recorded on a voice note, and you can clearly hear her nearly slapping me.
9 May – While aware that I was in the next room, Edna shouts very loudly: “She’s a racist, somebody one day will hurt her!” I take this as a threat and found it incredibly distressing. It interferes with my working from home. I ask the first housemate about their experiences with Edna. They tell me: Edna “was quite confrontational and was on the borderline harassment with me. […] Very demeaning. She would cuss me out under her breath if I didn't do exactly what she asked. She was also quite rude about our other housemate at the time behind his back. I went to the landlord with the issue but decided in the end to not take it any further cause I didn’t want a massive conflict at home.”
At the very least, my housemate is deeply disturbed. But that's not my responsibility to deal with, and I've just left an unsafe housing sitch and am devastated that I'm locked into potentially a year long tenancy with her. The only response so far: "I have referred these across to management to discuss. Please note that if for whatever reason you do not feel safe, please call the police and let us know. Please also continue to keep a log of everything."
Please let me know what my rights are here and what the property manager should be doing.
Update: I've bit the bullet and emailed the property manager with the following. I think realistically Edna will refuse to go through with mediation, which puts them in a very risky position if they chose her over me. (Also, I've just found out Edna started a very small fire once??)
Mediation with Written Agreement
I am happy and would prefer mediation. I would like Edna to agree in writing to:
Early Termination of One Tenancy
If mediation is not viable, I believe it is necessary for either Edna or me to be released from our tenancies. I understand she has expressed a wish to move soon owing to a prospective rent increase, so this may be a workable solution. I must stress that if I am forced to leave, I would be at immediate risk of homelessness, and I remain concerned for the other housemates’ welfare should the situation remain unresolved.
NAL but a plug-in nightlight may solve the hallway light issue, if there is a socket available.
(Many older people need a light at night to find their way to the loo - I holiday-let part of my house and found that successive guests left a light on - providing a nightlight fixed this.)
I would, but she won't even let me speak to her about this sort of thing haha. I've had about three convos with this woman max! There's definitely a way to make us both happy, for sure!
But I think the issue isn't really about the light but control itself. For example, she comes out her room, goes to mine to turn on the light, goes back to hers for an hour or so, THEN walks past my room to go to the bathroom. If she's not walking through the hall, why leave it on? I've said to her she can turn it on on the way, but that was met with screaming and she refused to listen.
As an aside, it's clear she's had a very hard time with race and I wouldn't blame her for being a bit traumatised. We are from very different generations, after all, and I can't imagine what she's experienced. But it's very evident that she can't functionally share a space, play nicely or have a functional relationship with others which is why she's renting with a bunch of twenty-somethings, perceives everyone as hostile and NEEDS to be in charge of EVERYTHING. She won't explain why she wants something (things everyone else in the house and I've spoken to has deemed pretty unreasonable and impractical), and shuts down any of my attempts to ask: "But why?" The answer is, of course, because it's what she wants and fundamentally doesn't believe in negotiating or compromise.
My turning off the light is a bit irrelevant really; it's clear to everyone in the house (in my very little time of being there) that she urgently needs some kind of psychiatric support to help deal with her issues.
I think you need to decide whether you can put up with this or if you can swallow the costs of moving again. Go back to your landlord and say you’re happy to find a new tenant but that you cannot stay and send him the recordings so he has some understanding of why you’re leaving. I feel like him kicking her out, or you calling to have a welfare check or any intervention in fact, will result in yet more turmoil for you.
I’ve lived with awful people before, people with extreme anger issues, smashing things, threatening rape, I once only got told I was living with a convicted rapist after I had moved in. I’m all 3 of these cases I lost money in order to keep myself safe and sane.
I wouldn’t say you’re happy to find a new tenant. Could you let someone else move in there in good conscience, knowing they’ll have to deal with Edna?
I’m not saying to stick it out, just that finding a replacement isn’t a good idea when you leave.
Advise you how you can move out
Nothing you describe would reasonably result in criminal charges. I appreciate it must be distressing but slamming doors, clapping her hands, swearing at you, none of these things would result in the police turning up and arresting her.
So for your own peace of mind I think you need to stop framing this as a police issue because you are probably taking an already stressful situation and blowing it up even further.
She sounds like a really difficult person to live with, and her behaviour is obviously out of line - but you need to take this up with the management company. But you should be aware that legally, it is unlikely they have grounds to evict her. And they will not likely risk litigation for your sake because she is slamming her door and aggressively turning light switches on.
If I were you, I would be trying to negotiate an early exit (offer to find a replacement etc). I would be careful about submitting your timeline of events because quite frankly, it makes you seem dramatic (I appreciate it is a horrible situation, but the worst you have is someone clapping their hands, turning a light on at night and slamming a door). My advice is to drop the notion that you can enforce any change on the situation and focus on what you can do to get out.
If it is a rolling contract, they wouldn't need grounds, but even if they did, most leases have prohibitions on anti-social behaviour. From the post it seems that some of the other housemates have complained about Edna in the past so it's not just one clash of personalities but a pattern where the common denominator is Edna
Honest to goodness I've never met a nicer bunch of housemates so quickly! But yes, it's very evident on the recording (and the property managers have agreed) she intended to hit me, and she made the comment about someone planning to hurt me on a recorded call with them.
Not a single person had anything nice to say, and the phrases 'serious anger issues', 'harassment', 'threatening' have been used by everyone. As I say I really don't want the police involved, but the property managers keep deferring me to them while they decide what to do
I'm sorry reading this. It must be difficult and stressful to feel threatened like this in your home. For some reason these house shares seem to be a magnet not these abusive type people. Often the landlord will have a hard time doing anything without a police action. And based on what you have told me, when she made you think you would be slapped, that's assault, even though she didn't actually hit you. Uttering threats is harassment. Both of which are criminal acts and should be reported to police, especially since it's in your own home.
My opinion is that you should not tolerate this in your home where you should feel safe and the only way is to file a police report, this is domestic abuse and police tend to take this seriously and intervene swiftly.
People with this kind of antisocial personality disorder generally cannot be reasoned with and action is needed over words.
Thanks for the kinds words. If I got police intervention, would something have to happen then? As I say, can she legally continue to live in the house if she's told to stay away from me?
I should preface: it's shit, but I've dealt with this kind of thing before. I am being very tactical, calm, and can always stay at my partners. Really, I just feel sorry for her, but want to take every precaution I can.
It really depends on the copper you speak to and what they are prepared to do. But you would be looking at assault charges and/or restraining action. Both would be considered grounds for eviction. Relying on police to press charges can be temperamental and having a good lawyer is generally better but, costly. But it doesn't hurt to have a chat.
It's understandable, you seem kind. Just beware, kindness is something unkind people take advantage of.
I am kind, but I'm also righteously indignant, haha. My last landlord committed a multitude of sins and through careful research and documenting I managed to win myself a £5.7k settlement without a lawyer - woo! This is also why I refused to give into this woman's bizarre tantrums and told her no from the get go. She has equated me saying that her behaviour and actions are angry and distressing as a comment on her race... I will not have it. Everyone in the house is willing to support me on this, too.
Sadly, I'm a student so can't really afford a lawyer at the moment. If I leave this place, I will likely be homeless as bf can't let me move in because of HMO complications that would arise.
Wow, nicely done 5.7k. I wish I could have done the same to my old property management company. 🤣 But yeah, you're doing the right thing, setting your boundaries in a civilized manner and recording everything. But that's gotta be exhausting. My experience with people like this is, it's likely to get worse and unlikely to get better without intervention. I think you have enough to present your case already.
Jesus Christ that's impressive. I lived with a horrible threatening person who called the police on me and our other (lovely) housemate. The police clearly thought she was batshit and just advised us to try and stay away from her until we could move out. She was also older than us, and did really shitty things like put bleach in our hygiene products. In the end we all got evicted because the property manager couldn't be arsed to deal with it. She refused to leave- turned out he'd been trying to get rid of her basically since we'd all moved in. Is there any way you can get yourself evicted? Could someone else pretend to have been your landlord for those months for you/ say you moved into parents or friends home for a while? The eviction left no mark on me whatsoever (credit checks etc) but then again I don't know if the property manager did all the things one would do if they were evicting someone!
i found the whole situation pretty tough. People i talked to about it brushed it off and just thought it was a typical rental problem but I don't think they understood how stressful it is living in a place where you don't feel safe. Really feel for you, hope it gets worked out.
WHAT?? That's awful, I'm so sorry.
Basically: I am a self-funded student with a variable income. If I leave, I won't be able to find another place in London for the price I'm paying now. I will be homeless, haha.
I think my approach will be focusing less on what she is doing (I'll still keep a record, though) and more so what the property managers risk by ignoring the situation and letting it continue, what tenancy clauses she has broken by behaving like this. I've found that if you can quote enough housing law confidently, letting agents and landlords know that it's better to have you onside rather than taking action.
The London rental market is brutal as fuck. You sound like you've got an excellent attitude towards it all though. It's really hard to not get bogged down by it all, especially if you're studying. I'm really impressed! Best of luck with it all, hope it gets resolved pretty soon
Thank you so much :)
Make a decision now that if the property manager offers a notice to quit for Edna or to let you out of your lease, you accept it as the solution and do not go back on that. These situations only get worse and less disruptive options don't work because you both live in the same property
Issue is: I'm a self-employed student. I earn enough to pay rent comfortably, but not London rent. This place took me months to find, and paperwork took about a month with references. If I leave there's a good chance I would be homeless as my partner lives in a two person house, so my presence would make it an unlicensed HMO.
The only other solution then is for the property manager to ask/require Edna to move out, which might home life difficult for a while too. It's a really tough situation to be in
I think I will do that after requesting mediation. That obviously won't work, but I've heard her scream on the phone to them at I want to be seen as the more agreeable tenant that they are incentivised to keep
The notice to quit is really helpful though, so thank you!! As I say, I've barely interacted with the woman and there shouldn't be this much fuss over me turning a light off so I can sleep and save electricity... if this is how it starts, it can only get worse.
There are also housing options specific for over 55s (or sometimes 60s) - your local council will have sheltered housing - one bed flat but with additional facilities for older people (check info on their website for eligibility rules, whether there is a wait list).
The private rental market also have "retirement homes" i.e. one bedroom flats for over 55s/60s (not care homes), the rent on these are well below market for flats without the age requirement, but her rent is significantly less than £1,000pcm, then it would be a jump in rent and bills.
If she could get a sheltered housing flat, she might prefer that and want to leave, only difficulty is how to get the info to her so she doesn't reject it out of hand or get defensive and so makes it a point of principle to stay where she is.
Great! Thank you
Does the hallway light being on disturb your sleep? If not maybe just let the crazy old coot keep it on. Then see what her next problem is.
it does unfortunately, and to the point where my whole room is light because of the window sitch at the top of my door! I did explain but...
Get yourself a draught excluder for the door gap and some stick on (but removable) black vinyl /window cling film for the top window .. then the light won't bother you and the old grump can chill... she is going to be a pain in the arse about everything, so limit your interaction with her as much as you can.. for your own sanity...
Haha thank you. Think the damage is done, but the light is now less an issue than her deliberately waking me up by stomping and slamming.
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I have asked the other housemates about this and she seems to have no friends or family to speak of. I did ask for mediation, which I think she'll refuse, but I am open to sitting down and having a neutral party talk to her about compromising and communicating nicely as those seem like alien concepts to her.
As for the police, turns out she started a small fire in the house once - lol. So, yikes.
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It was an accident with a toaster, but she is quite careless generally speaking. I think they have it on their radar that this was a plausible accident, but based on what they know she may escalate.
I might do that, thanks.
I would just ask if you can move out. Legally Edna has alot of rights, the property managers would find it very hard to evict her and it would take a long time - all the while you being targeted. After leaving she would also still know where you live. Such people can be a nightmare.
I had a tenant who pulled knives on people, had thrown people down the stairs and had threatened myself and another tenant enough after being asked to keep noise down at 5am on a Tuesday morning (could be heard 3 floors down).
This was all logged with police numbers etc, he was given s21, and s8 notices for non payment of rent and was still advised not to leave by Shelter.
Thankfully after 8 months of that he attacked us while we were working on a ladder painting the exterior of the house, this was videoed and the police did respond to the call. However they still decided nor to prosecute. Also video of him I'm climbing on the roof and shouting threats which broke roof tiles.
Video of him threatening to kill another fellow housemate which was reported.
He had mental health issues, and risk of homelessness. Thankfully he moved out without eviction, as it was looking unlikely that would be possible without another 8 months wait on the courts - which is a long time to live with someone that unwell who has threatened to kill you. Police advised to baracade in room and ring them if things ever escalated. When he did finally move out found a 3 foot samurai sword and just suggesting intravenous drug use in his room - as well as him leaving window open in sky light, urinating on the mattress and taking light bulb etc.
If you can leave I would just strongly advise to do that. There is probably a reason the rent is so low, and it's probably Edna. If she leaves you might find yourself looking over your shoulder while you still live there and I would imagine the rent would go up anyway.
I imagine the management company also find her a nightmare, but at least it's one you can leave. Nothing you've said is sadly serious enough to satisfy a mandatory ground in a s8, and because of her age and mental health a judge would find in favour of her staying- and that could still take a long time and alot of expense. See if you can convince the management company to issue a s21 - this is the instrument we normally use for tenants like this as fault doesn't need to be proven - however they don't have long to do this as it is being removed with the renters rights bill. This will also take about 14 months with current court delays - however should result in an eviction.. They would be wise to do it. Otherwise they'll probably have to sell in order to get her out. For a mandatory ground you will need a conviction really for ASB. Keep ringing the police - this is why they are advising you to do so- without that it is all just hearsay and a judge will not evict for hearsay. The police are likely to be extremely busy with such cases once the rrb passes as landlords won't really have any instruments to deal with ASB in HMOs.
For tenants like him, even if the police considered criminal action is not possible because of the criminal standard of proof e.g. beyond reasonable doubt, ask for them to obtain an civil injunction under the Anti-social behaviour, crime and policing act 2014, which is decided on the civil standard of proof i.e. more likely than not. A civil injunction could exclude him from the property and/or prohibit particular behaviours. A power of arrest can attach to the prohibitions too and any found breach is a mandatory ground for eviction
Reading between the lines I would imagine Edna has mental health issues, and may well be canny enough to leverage this if she felt there was any threat to her tenancy. She's already tried to play the race card, after all.
I think you're doing the right thing by going for mediation. It's worth a try and it shows you are keen to try and resolve matters non-confrontationally but as you say, Edna may well refuse to take part, or if she does, will likely not keep to the mediation agreement.
Sadly I suspect your only option in the end will be to move out yourself, because I doubt Edna will be going anywhere any time soon.
You need to report Edna and get her sectioned before she torches the place while you all sleep.
Heed the warning...
I am puzzled why you communicate with the other housemates but not her. Does she not posses a mobile phone? Sharing is difficult. By law the landlord has to declare any difficulties that may existing at the time of the contract signing. Failure to do this could present you with a get out from your tenancy agreement as would your right to quiet enjoyment of the premises. He clearly knew of the problem so if you wish to leave this would be a get out.
> I am puzzled why you communicate with the other housemates but not her. Does she not posses a mobile phone?
The post clearly stated attempts to communicate with Edna, and Edna refusing to share her phone number.
I did ask if we could exchange numbers for emergencies but she refuses. She said, "I want to keep to myself." I think she is intent on shutting down any avenue of communication whatsoever.