Updating post from Reddit.
Hi Landlords,
I need your help! I am a renter who has been at the same property nearly two years (and with no intention of leaving, we love it here!)
I have recently been contacted by my energy provider, octopus, that my meter is expiring and therefore must be replaced by a new meter before the 30th of June. I have received several emails, calls and texts to get an appointment booked.
However my issue lies within my landlord - one of the first things (and only things) they told us about he property when moving in was - NO SMART METERS. they made a big point about this.
Now I would love one but because of this i never got one installed. With the meter expiring, the only popular option is to replace this with a smart meter. a smart meter is a permanent change to the property because one you put one in, you cannot change it for another meter (they don't make the ones we have anymore).
I have been told by the energy company that it is my decision as a tenant to change and do whatever i want with the meter as this belongs to the energy company and not the landlord, however I do not want to upset my landlord and give them any reason to not trust me as a tenant.
I am very involved in maintaining this flat to a high standard (better than I found it) and so much has been wrong since moving here but we turn a blind eye because the flat has so much potential and an amazing location at a great price.
I feel like I'm a bit stuck on what to do.
Can please any landlords advise? Would love your thoughts!
PS: I have just re-read my contract and there is a clause that states the following: " not to make any alterations or additions to temper or interfere with the electric and pluming systems, installations or meters in or serving the Premises "
Thanks
The landlord cannot mandate this. If you pay the bills, you can choose your supplier and type of meter.
The meter doesn't even belong to the landlord. It belongs to a vendor or the energy supplier. So they have no say in what meter you choose.
Firstly meters don’t expire (at least to the point that they have to be changed), energy companies are in a real pickle at the moment because they made lots of promises to the government to install smart and are way off their quota. Likely the person you spoke to is on some kind of performance related bonus scheme or has targets and has said this to get you to change. As long as the meter is recording consumption then it doesn’t need changing.
There are some benefits to you as the occupier such as tariffs that best reflect your usage that might help you save money so that is worth baring in mind.
Has the landlord said why he doesn’t want smart? Is it bills included? If it is then there’s potentially something more sinister about his reluctance for smart, if not then maybe he just likes his tin foil hat 😂
Ultimately the decision is yours and there is absolutely no requirement for you to change your meter if you don’t want to.
Sorry that's not quite accurate. Meters have a lifespan of up to 40 years usually, so it's entirely possible the meter has reached this point. Also if OPs meter is controlled by RTS (Radio Tele Switch), that system is being switched off on June 30 this year. Those meters will no longer function as intended, and may result in no electricity being supplied in some cases.
You're right that energy suppliers are mandated to deliver a certain number smart meter installation, but this sounds a bit different in OPs case.
The landlord may find themselves in hot water if they fail to facilitate this if they let the meter expire.
>that system is being switched off on June 30 this year.
The same day OP says their meter expires. I think we've cracked the case
Could someone explain why one wouldn't want smart-meters ?
I think its because they do not want someone tracking their readings when the property is empty- that is literally the only reason i can think of.
Personally i would be really happy to have one installed, would save me hassle and save me money!
I see you are a landlord! What are your thoughts on the situation? Im very worried they have grounds to kick me out and renting is hard enough!
We are great tenants, we maintain the property to a high standard as well as help them when they are unable to visit by scheduling the repairs on their behalf with their permission! Like i basically take on all the work they should be doing for them because they are not local and they just pay the invoice 😅
But still i do respect them and want to be equally respected if that makes sense
It's hard for me to give an opinion because my properties have them anyway and I can't see why one wouldn't. The devil in me (as a tenant) would just let me have one fitted and feign ignorance about the situation.
My property has been empty since mid November - should I be worrried? Got massive renos going on it it.
Not the person you asked, but I'm in this situation:
On a personal front and having been on the receving end of energy companies fucking up (coincidently always in their favour) the bill and trying to charge vastly more than is owed, I quite simply don't want the step of providing the readings to be automated, I want to remain in control of it. The amount they would have got away with had I not kept detailed spreadsheets was low enough to go unnoticed but high enough that it would have covered several months energy bills over the course of the year.
Whilst this would be my tenants issue generally as it's their account, the property is occasionally void and becomes my issue, so I wouldn't want a repeat of those issues I've faced at my own home. Traditional meters can provide a nice clean cut line in the sand for when they move out. Long and short, my personal experience (rather than any tinfoil hat fears) have led me to not trust energy providers, and a smart meter is another layer of removing me from the loop.
With that all said, my tenant recently asked the same, if they could install a smart meter so they could benefit from cheaper tariffs, and i agreed to it despite my concerns - would be unfair not to.
Have you made your landlord aware that you are paying more expensive prices as a result of this? If you already have a good relationship with them, perhaps they will change their mind?
You are in control of it. It literally says the kw/hrs on the screen, and you can take photos of that with exif data proving the date. Your reasons are nonsensical.
Seeing it on a screen after the fact is not control. Control is providing them directly. The fact you state that exif data on a photo is somehow evidence shows your ignorance of it. Exif data is easily editable and is evidence of nothing. My reasons are legitimate and based upon personal experience of dealing with energy companies through the years.
Thank you so much for your input! I very much appreciate it - I do have a good relationship with them but this is the one thing they repeatedly have expressed they do not want. I have looked at my contract again and there is a clause ... " not to make any alterations or additions to temper or interfere with the electric and pluming systems, installations or meters in or serving the Premises " . Is this something you also include in your tenants contracts as standard but allowed them to get a smart meter?
The contract was provided by my agent and I haven't looked at it for years as the same tenant has been there for a long time but I'd assume that is standard wording and probably is included. Just ask them and make them aware of the implications directly to you of them saying no. If the relationship sours, that's on them.
Because they're completely unnecessary, as long as I'm delivering meter readings and paying my bill they don't have one valid reason to give me to say that I actually need one. They can also be switched off remotely for things like non payment which would be fine but it opens up the opportunity to switch it off for other reasons either by the government or malicious third parties hacking in.
The benefits don't outweigh the risk/drawbacks for a ton of people and the more the government and energy companies push to have them installed the more distrustful people get of them.
Some will call these conspiracy theories but give it time and youl see how they can be used against us
Power companys can switch them off without having to do switching on the grid.
So if we go through an energy crisis they can start switching off places with smart meters to save energy. Whereas people without smart meters it involves the DNO switching off parts of the grid more directly.
It happened in Texas during winter. They turned down everyone’s heating to save energy. Some people that were hosting several families were using a lot of energy and had it completely switched off.
If you read the FinePrint, there’s a small chance that changing the meter can interfere with the wiring in the property and any issues that arise from it would be at the cost of the Landlord and not the energy company. Maybe the Landlord super risk verse with an old dodgy property and doesn’t want to risk anything going wrong.
The tenants been fed bull crap about their meter expiring , there’s no such thing. Op can just say no I’m not having a new meter and keep everyone happy.
Energy providers can turn off your electricity remotely without visiting (and associated legal process), that's one reason why some people won't get them fitted. Not that this related to OPs landlords case, but it can be a pretty good reason for some not to get it
Because they don’t work and you still have to send in readings!
They can be made into pre-payment meters on the whim of a provider. Landlords hate pre-payment meters as its always a pain on tenant change over when the energy company wants the debt cleared.
But then when the tenant changes... They can be instantly changed back.
You don't get debt with a smart prepayment meter that's the entire point...
Not sure where you got that from you can get into debt with a smart meter, just on the daily charges alone.
Yes, landlord is not responsable for the debt on change. The energy company dont make it easy however, you often get stuck in a loop of "we can not change over until we have a onward address due to the debt"
You literally can't get more than £5 debt on a pre-pay meter, unless you already owe the electricity company and then the debt follows you, not the meter.
If you don't have money on the meter, it doesn't accrue debt it just doesn't allow the power to flow.
You can blast past £5 with standing charges alone plut it doesnt work with £10 debt and you put £10 top-up and it pays off the debt. Only propotion of debt is paid off, to give the person electicity.
It's not the debt, its the switching after a debt is on the meter that is a pain. Yes, it should be easy but the energy company representatives put every hurdle in your way to stop it.
I've never seen a meter with standing charge. Any debt shouldn't matter, as it goes with the customer not the property surely?
Yes, not on the property. I imagine they have a lot of people "Tring it on" and often requiring you to jump through hoops before clearing it and opening a new account.
Therefore I'd argue a savvy landlord, hopefully one of the good ones, could probably launch a class-action suit against them for the trouble.
There are privacy concerns. Smart meters can incorporate technology that can gather a tremendous amount of data about the specific appliances being used in your home. This data can be as detailed as allowing your energy provider to know whether you are using a vacuum cleaner with a full or empty dust bag. Now, whether that matters to you will largely depend on your stance on privacy. Personally, I couldn't care less if my energy supplier knows what time I vacuum and whether the bag is full, but that's not really the point. It's a matter of principle. They have no legitimate reason to intrude on my personal privacy in such a manner. Their purpose is simply to provide me with energy and bill me for the amount used.
The other concerning aspect is one of security. Smart meters allow for the power to be cut to individual properties remotely, without the need for an engineer to attend. One would hope this would only ever be used as a last resort for persistent non-payment of bills, but with smart meters being connected to the internet there is a legitimate concern that a malicious actor could find some software vulnerability in the meter itself and mess with it in all manner of ways from forcibly disconnecting the supply to falsifying usage data. As a general rule, if something doesn't have to be connected to the Internet, then it shouldn't be. Connecting something to the internet opens it up to attack. Some things are best kept offline.
In terms of practical objections, some smart meters and/or energy supplies will not supply replacement displays if yours is lost or damaged. Meaning that one of the key selling points of the meter, being able to see real-time usage and billing, can be permanently lost. If you move into a property and the previous occupant took their display with them? Tough luck.
With all of the above said, one of the major points made in favour of smart meters is that they submit usage to the energy provider automatically so you don't have to worry about it. Considering that you are smart enough to read your own meter, do the pros and cons balance out?
>This data can be as detailed as allowing your energy provider to know whether you are using a vacuum cleaner with a full or empty dust bag.
That's a new one on me. Do you have a source? My understanding is that both SMETS1 and SMETS2 meters are only collecting usage at a granularity of every 30 minutes so what you say would be 'challenging' with that level of data.
There is no source.
You're exactly correct - live usage is available in the home over ZigBee to an in home display - data to the supplier, the 30 minutes interval totals are all that gets stored.
Here's the source: https://www.imeche.org/news/news-article/smart-meter-tracks-power-consumption-of-individual-devices
It's also worth reading what I said. I said smart meters can incorporate this technology, not that they currently do.
Concern about the future potential uses of smart meters is a valid answer to the original question as to why someone would not want one.
Downvote away.
The technology is called Triple Ohm and is developed by 42 Technology in Cornwall and uses analysis of changes in high-frequency current and voltage harmonics . Here's an article by the Institute of Mechanical Engineers.
https://www.imeche.org/news/news-article/smart-meter-tracks-power-consumption-of-individual-devices
There are other articles about non-intrusive load monitoring. You are correct that current meters collecting usage every 30 minutes would not be adequate for meaningful NILM, but the period of collection is not a physical limitation and could presumably be altered by an OTA firmware update in future.
That's not even factoring in the impact AI analysis could have.
This could all be pie in the sky stuff that never comes to pass, but the old idiom holds true. Act in haste, repent at leisure. I wouldn't say "never" to a smart meter, but I'd want to feel a lot more comfortable about the security risks if nothing else before signing up.
That's about giving the information to customers, if customers want that level of monitoring then they can get pretty close to it with circult level monitoring, smart plugs etc. Your claim was specifically about this being given to energy providers though, the article you cited was primarily about in home customer level monitoring (and presumably that device can send to the electricity company outside of the smart meter) but specifically requires extra technology to be added to the home, it isn't possible if you only have current smart meter tech.
I can install a breaker that monitors and uploads electricity consumption to the internet, but I wouldn't be making the broader claiming that by having breakers in the consumer unit in your home, that means your electricity consumption is uploaded to the internet.
The question was "why wouldn't someone want a smart meter?".
One of my three answers was the potential privacy implications which include the fact that smart meters could incorporate technology to gather appliance level usage data not that they currently do.
It would be, at best, naive to assume that energy providers will resist the collection of such data as soon as it becomes cost effective to do so.
And if anyone thinks concerns about data gathering is silly, I would recommend reading Data and Goliath: The Hidden Battles to Collect Your Data and Control Your World by Bruce Schneier as a jumping off point.
I've read all of Bruce Schneier's books (I think) including that one.
A smart meter CAN NOT do what you say, so it was not a valid argument against it. A smart meter DOES use short range radio to provide you with realtime wireless data about consumption. The additional device you reference can collect this data and do whatever it wants with that data once collected. So your argument is not against a smart meter, it's against that specific device.
If you do not have a smart meter then you can still do the SAME thing, if you get EXTRA DEVICES e.g. swap out one of your breakers for a clever one that can transmit the same data or add a smart plugs etc.
By your own logic if you include things that are possible only with EXTRA equipment like this, you might as well just say your article is a reason for not having a having a 'dumb' meter because if you have one of those and extra kit, this is all possible. The only difference is that there is marginally less effort in installing the extra kit.
I think we're going around in circles here.
So, just to clarify my position. I think that smart meters can not currently do this, but the article specifically states that Triple Ohm technology:
>doesn’t require any additional switches or add-ons.
I would interpret this to mean that the heavy lifting is being done in firmware and/or software. Both of which can be updated remotely. If current meters do not have the processing power to do the number crunching locally, the task could be offloaded to the cloud.
Your smart meter uses short range radio to provide you with realtime wireless data. It communicates with your provider via 4G/5G.
Again, I think you're either misunderstanding or misrepresenting my position.
I do not think smart meters are doing this now. I think via a combination of firmware updates and cloud computing they may be updated to do this in future (especially with the advances in AI since the article was published in 2017) and that is a valid reason to be sceptical of them.
That's all.
Lets have a look at the full quote:
>The device uses ‘Triple Ohm’ technology developed by Cornwall-based engineering consultancy 42 Technology. It can be embedded in the meter, and works by monitoring changes in the high-frequency current or voltage harmonics caused when specific appliances are being used within a building, and doesn’t require any additional switches or add-ons.
It's pretty clear that it's a new physical device. There isn't actually anything in the article that says it requires a smart meter at all.
Closest thing seems to be that it calls the additional hardware a "smart metering device" in its own right.
The article really about the technology that allows a device on a circuit to detect what devices are being used without having any additional hardware elesewhere on the circuit.
If that technology works at all, it will work on any circuit, even those that have no meter at all.
Yes, absolute load of rubbish how can a meter tell the difference between say a kettle and a vacuum cleaner.
Half of this is just factually incorrect.
The only data the meter has is live usage - you can't tell what's being used in the house.
The other major point is there are tons of smart tariffs to save money these days that require one.
When you say these are open to attack - it's really not, you can't mess with the actual metering element of these so it's a non issue. It's read only to the smart controller and can't be modified.
You seem like a 5G COVID conspiracy nutter who keeps a tin foil hat for walking under power lines.
Please Keep it Civil
People's broadband routers are much more of a security concern than smart meters! I assume you've built your own?
No, but I am running the latest stable build of FreshTomato.
Are you in a house or a flat? Is there anywhere - outbuilding or attic, or a cupboard etc. - that you can't access? There's really no reason not to get a smart meter unless one doesn't want the specifics of electricity usage to be monitored.
Of course, you can broadly keep an eye on your usage anyway by seeing how quickly the meter ticks over, but with a smart meter you get a very clear view on a display, right in your kitchen or whatever.
And what might that reveal? That your landlord is using some of your electricity for something. Maybe you have a small crypto mining server hidden in the attic or shed, or if you're in a flat, the flat above or below you is using your supply too.
Basically - why does someone not want you to see that even when you know you're not using that much electricity, your meter still says you are?
Conspiracy theory much? Probably :) But you can easily check now - turn off everything in your house for a few minutes and go see if the meter is still ticking over. If so, what's using that power?
I'm sure in reality there's a much more 'rational' reason, like they don't like the idea of 5G airwaves in their property or whatever. Some people just don't trust smart meters, either from a data privacy point of view or some other equally silly reason.
5G airwaves in their property is a rational reason?
The radio waves are there anyway... Whether you use them or not.
Tinfoil hat nonsense
As for usage - you can see that anyway... Turn off all your stuff and walk outside - standard meter still sticks up or spins and you'd be able to see other usage hanging off your meter.
The advantages are smart tariffs - especially if you've got modern renewable tech or electric heating etc - can save hundreds a year just switching to one.
Rational? no - that's why I put it in quotes :)
You'll also note I mentioned exactly the same technique on checking usage!
Yeah, I am not totally sure about the reasoning of them not wanting this... but i just found this in my contract because she is a solicitor and she knows her stuff, the clause that states the following: " not to make any alterations or additions to temper or interfere with the electric and pluming systems, installations or meters in or serving the Premises " - just a bit lost with what to do - but im ready to argue that if we lose power (which can happen from the day the RTS system shuts off) that she is in breach of a working property ...
Not a landlord. But as far as I’m aware you can’t get non-smart meters anymore
After much pushing for other options they did say I can get a non smart digital meter but i wont be able to take advantage of the cheaper tariffs… I’m currently on an economy 7 meter and the non metered might not give us that option… single tariff only
If you insist on nonsmart meters, they will install the same meters as everyone else but disable the comms bit, so they aren’t ‘smart’ any more.
To be honest, it’s a bit of a daft hill for a landlord to want to die on. I would say it’s in his advantage to have them in, as it reduces his risk of being stuck with a tenant’s energy bill if they abscond, as there will be proof of meter readings vs dates.
I would say just do it and keep schtum… he’s not even going to find out anyway till you’ve left, unless he’s doing very thorough mid-tenancy inspections!
I am tempted as bad as it sounds... they have never come over the two years we have been here and I dont think they will be coming any time soon...
Oh God, just go for it; it’s ridiculous.
Am a landlord, by the way.
If you rent your property
If you pay for the gas or electricity in your rented property, you can choose to have a smart meter.
We recommend you tell your landlord before you get one. That’s because there may be rules in your tenancy agreement about how energy is supplied to the property, including the type of meter that can be installed.
If your landlord pays the energy bills, the decision to get a smart meter is up to them.
If your tenancy agreement says you need your landlord’s permission to alter metering at your property, they should not unreasonably prevent it.
That’s from the Ofgem website
I pay the energy bill (and all the bills) - but i just re-read the contract and found the following :" not to make any alterations or additions to temper or interfere with the electric and pluming systems, installations or meters in or serving the Premises "
I just feel stuck - also they are SO BAD at replying they take ages to sort things out...
Just tell the landlord an analogue meter isn’t available. It’s not a total lie as they aren’t made anymore and there’s very little stock of them left.
It’s not fair that the landlords hill to die on will leave you at the mercy of higher bills
Seems you want to maintain a relationship with your LL.
Talk to your LL and tell him what they are saying. Ask him what he wants to do
Can also ask him to write a letter telling them they arent allowed on his property without a court order. If LL doesnt want it, he can deal with it legally.
Personally I dont like Gas smart meters, they run out of battery, but to change the battery, the whole unit has to be replaced. Ridiculous.
Do you get free gas when the battery runs out?
They go by the previous usage apparently
Does you LL understand the smart meter set up / is he mixing it up with perhaps a top up card set up?
Smart meters have a reputation for unreliability and inaccuracy. Your landlord doesn’t want the consequent hassle on some future occasion when you’ve left. There’s lots to read about the problems on the web. Personally I wouldn’t touch one with a barge pole until the law forces me to.
Yes this feels like its their reasoning, and I totally get the reluctance - but at the same time not swapping may leave me with no electricity! so in a way we are being forced - they dont make different meters anymore
Don’t be conned into thinking your meter is end of life unless you’ve established the facts. Telesales people will tell you any number of lies to convince you it’s the law or it’s a government directive. How old is your meter? Speak to the neighbours.
This is why we are being made to swap! https://www.energy-uk.org.uk/customers/the-radio-teleswitch-service-switch-off-what-you-need-to-know/
Once smart meter been installed cant take them back out its his property so should be his choice
It's a con btw, they are simply trying to force smart meters in people to meet government targets.
It's still possible I think to insist that they are installed in "dumb" mode, but this isn't ideal.
I've been ignoring their demand in this for about 2 years.
Octopus is using their “expired meter” line across the board to force people into switching.
If the landlord is that upset let them talk to Octopus.
Expired meter might be the wrong term, but old economy 7 meters that's use RTS to tell the time will stop working as intended later this year.
The only option to keep using economy 7 will be to have a new smart meter installed.
Personally I would respect the Landlord’s wishes and refuse the smart meter. Technically, as some have said, you are allowed to change it but it just doesn’t seem worth poisoning your relationship with the landlord if you are really happy there.
I have had extensive experience dealing with energy companies as I didn’t want a smart meter, and they can be pushy disingenuous bullies about it. I have been told similar things as you were told and firmly said “no” and it didn’t go any further so take what they are saying with a pinch of salt.
Good luck whatever happens!
I am trying to be as respectful as possible, but I have estimated my costings by not swapping to go up by 20-35% and me and my partner do not earn very much combined anyways! our bill is currently £180 for a one bed flat ( I work from home occasionally - i cook a lot too and its winter so the heating does come on occasionally!) and with the estimate is i might be paying around £240 as the economy 7 tarriff will be taken away without a smart meter :(
Meters don't expire.
Meter belongs to your energy supplier & they can change it whenever they like.
You can change supplier unless your contract says you cannot.
*.What you've stated about meters in your contract only applies to you not the supplier or there engineers.
You supplier won't remove a smart meter for non-smart at customer request.
However, I had a meter break about 6 months ago, gas man only had a non-smart meter in the back of the van, he'd just removed it from someone else, he fitted that. I didn't request this or care either way.
Very soon new legislation will come into place that will require all meter to be smart i believe, unless that’s mandated for business only
Octopus have been sending me those messages for years. Ignore it your meter isn’t going to blow up they just want you on a smart one.
Just do it. Legally there's nothing the landlord can do.
Don't tell them though
Why am I being downvoted for factual information?
https://www.ovoenergy.com/help/article/installing-a-smart-meter-in-a-rented-property
https://octopus.energy/help-and-faqs/articles/can-i-get-a-smart-meter-if-i-rent-my-property/
It's not the landlords choice if the tenant is the one named on the bills. As the tenant - just do it!