Updating post from Reddit.
Can my tenant make a small court claim for 1 of the 2 bathrooms out of order? She wants £4100 because a sliding shower screen in the bathroom broke during the tenancy and I didn’t fix it since there was another one available ensuite and told her not to use the broken one until she fixes it. She claimed she was out when it broke on it’s own. I later fix it last month. now she wants 30% out of the £1000 monthly rent for the 10 months where she couldn’t use it, £1k Inconvenience and £100 for cleaning the broken glass. I offered her £250 off next month’s rent, but she’s insisting on going to court. Will the court favor her Since she can’t prove she didn’t cause the damage? I’m trying to avoid the court so how much do you think is sufficient compensation
Why did you wait 10 months to fix it, why did she not kick up a massive fuss 9 months ago.
10 months to replace a shower screen which is like an hours job though that is ridiculous The landlord should be ashamed.
I agree. Ours at home got so grubby we took out, replaced and fitted a new one in less than 2 hours, that included cleaning up the mess of the old one exploding into a million pieces when I literally touched the corner against a door.
Ah reminds me of when I helped my brother collect some specially made glazed units from the window manufacturer got back to his and unloading from the van the slightest knock in the corner against the floor of the van meant the whole unit smashed to pieces. He was gutted.
You win, at least ours was the old one. I’ll never forget the sound though, the bang it made me think I’d actually been shot!
Can you come round and do mine please...
Sorry got a year waiting list, but maybe the op can do it sooner than me…
I'll throw in a meal deal of your choosing...
Tempered glass sometimes break (it’s under high tension or something), so you‘ll never win claiming for that
you should have fixed straight away. Waiting 10 months is bad landlording which has put you on the back foot
however, no court would grant such a high claim but they will set some compensation.
if they order you to pay costs? I guess that depends if they consider that you made a reasonable offer.
you don’t say how many bedrooms, but you turned it into say a 2 bed 1 bath from a 2 bed 2 bath. What is the rent difference between the two. that’s your compensation plus a bit for been a poor landlord.
It’s a 3 bed room and 2 bath. 1 is ensuite. The damaged one was the general bath. The rent is 1k£
“I guess that depends if they consider that you made a reasonable offer”. Does that mean the court may not ask me to pay since I made a reasonable offer and she rejected?
What do you think is a fair compensation to pay her?
You made an offer. The court will decide whether it was a reasonable one. £250 for 10 months of inconvenience is probably not
The court will take into account that if you made a reasonable effort to fix which you didn’t and a reasonable effort to find compromise.
is the rent £1k for the property or the room?
If it was the general bath that was broke then it isn’t really about the shower screen, it is about the ensuit tenant loosing their privacy
if total rent £1k then they are asking too much, but to be honest if it is rent for the room the 30% reduction to have the other 2 tenants using their bathroom is possibly fairer than I originally thought.
Mine exploded on its own about a momth after it was fitted and caught in the camera in the hall (our own camera not LLs) so it can happen. Even if it didn't explode on its own you've taken 10 months which is not a reasonable time
Lol. You asked 5 months ago who should fix it, everyone said just fix it. 5 months later you come crawling back. Bad Landlord.
Oh yikes, I never check history lol. This is the type of LL that folks moan about quite often. Literally ignore everyone saying to just fix it all this time.
you silly silly boy, you are the kind of person who gives all of us a bad name.
a built in screen is a part of the fabric of the building and thus maintainable by you. you could after fixing it possibly claim of the deposit for it if you can prove it was broken by her.
also an ensuite is not the same as a separate bathroom. . just think its 2 am. i just got back from a longd rive and i want a shower. now i have to walk through somones bedroom who i live with but am not in a relaitonship with, , probably mainly nude, disturbing them to shower and wander back again.
i mean there sexy sexy time could be ruined by it, they could sleep nude and dont want me wandering my hairy ass in looking at them and oddly i really really need a shower sometimes.
She rented the whole 3bd room. So she had unlimited access to the ensuite one.
But she agreed rent on a 3 bed 2 bath, not a 3 bed 1 bath.
You have been a shitty landlord and not met your responsibilities, you should have fixed it so she had access to everything she was paying for
in addition
some people cant use a shower. i know there are many enclosures is simply cant get my shoulders into.
some people cant use a bath because of mobility . so it may not be suitable.
was she renting alone or with others?
Why on earth didn't you just fix it in the first place?
Do you manage directly or have a property manager in place?
30% is ridiculous.
I manage it myself. How much do you think would be a fair compensation?
There have been cases where claims are granted if a room is unusable/uninhabitable. For example 5 rooms and one is unusable, if the rent is £1200 it is possible for tenant to ask 1/5th off the rent for the time the room is inhabitable/unusable i.e. £240 p/m. If the toilet and sink were still usable then 1/3 of the room facilities were unusable i.e £80 p/m.
If this had been fixed in a 'reasonable' time it probably wouldn't be granted but 10 months is waaay past reasonable. If this is in a HMO even more chance of a judge coming down heavily.
Wow that's a lot of money for not being able to use 1 out of 2 showers 😱 she's definitely trying her luck, but why did you wait so long to fix it?
If she’s paid for 2 bathrooms it’s not up to him to decide how many she’s allowed because 1 is working, awful attitude
Oh give over with the dramatics 🙄 I didn't say she wasn't entitled to use them, I said she's asking for a lot of money for this inconvenience. Both are as bad as each other, her for trying to take advantage and landlord for not dealing with it. If she hadn't had a shower to use at all, 4k would be a reasonable ask.
If she hadn’t had a shower at all it would be much more than 4k as the property wouldn’t be fit for purpose, ok let’s say there is 5 rooms in the home, 1 not able to be used, that’s 20% of the house so 20% deducted from the rent for 10 months + abit For the inconvenience. Mentioned rent as £1k 20% for 10 months £2000, + say £500 for the inconvenience 2.5k would be a fair amount for you ?
Clearly I'm not as invested as you but simple fact is that's not what happened. Guess they'd have to bash it out in court to prove your figures correct.
Just because there's an en suite bathroom doesn't mean the Tennant wants everyone using it She's paid for a bathroom and an ensuite and what she's asking for works out about £400 a month which is (here anyway) the difference in rent of a 1bath vs 2 bath property
Some might suggest that if this sort of compensation is awarded it may get landlords to actually fix things that are wrong, especially when they are such simple fixes as this.
You should be ashamed of yourself having let it go this far.
Next time fix shit do your tenants don't have to live like that.
30% sounds ridiculous, until as another commenter mentions, what's the price difference between a property with 2 baths, and a property with 1, in that area? That's a potential guide for compensation, because that's what you allowed it to become.
There's then inconvenience, it's not as simple as 'there was another one you could use' - if one of the bathrooms is an ensuite for example, then you're now saying "you lose the convenience of your ensuite, tough" if it was that one, or if it was the main bathroom, that everyone has to go through a bedroom to have a shower. That will most likely attract some compensation.
Shit breaks, that's not the problem. You left it 10 months, that's a big problem, regardless of how it was broken - it puts the tenant in a strong position. Factor in the time and cost you'll spend fighting this, even if they don't get their full amount, how much will you end up out? Work that out and anything you pay to settle under that amount is a saving.
Work out how much that extra bathroom is worth on rent (say, £100 - pure guess), x 10. Then add some for the inconvenience of being a bathroom down, say £500. Present these numbers, very apologetically, and see what happens. They might get less in court, but this way it'll be over with and you'll save yourself a ton of time in the process.
Then, of course, start looking after your properties properly!
Has she started court action or just sent a request
Just sent a request. But threatening to take action next week
I’d wait for anything official
I've had my own shower glass suddenly explode before, so it does happen.
Do you not have insurance for this? Check your policies. If you do then the company will want to know about it ASAP, and may wish to take over the negotiations on your behalf.
Chancer
Ten months to fix a shower screen isn’t acceptable, I’m afraid. As a landlord, the longer you take to fix issues, the more weight you give to tenants not to pay rent and/or seek this sort of compensation.
From my understanding, before it gets to court - you are given the opportunity to attend mediation, which is done via phone call. You may be able to strike an agreement for less than £4100.
Yes similar to locks that just stop working, doors that just stop closing, usually accidentally damage that isn't being admitted but always a chance it could have "just happened ' even if the probability is near zero
It really does happen I fit bathrooms happens more often than you’d think
I know it happens, I also know it hasn't happened on any of the glazing or bathroom fitting jobs I've been involved with for over 15 years except where someone has scratched or knocked the glass with something hard
Cheaply made glass comes with imperfection’s temperature change ect can cause this
After admitting it does happen why would you try and fight your way out of it for 10 months ? You’re talking a couple of hours labour and £200 quid shower screen just get it done and move on with your life. I know you’re not the op I’m just saying it’s innocent unless you can prove them to be lying
I have bad history on disputes like this, had a similar dispute with a tenant who would damage stuff then threaten me with council enforcement unless I paid compensation. She set the house on fire in the end and moved into a tent.
Broken glass the tenant pays for, same as any other property damage, unless they get a crime reference and name whoever did the damage. It's only the same cost for them, the party who caused the damage
That is what your deposit is for and you take that up with a dispute at the end if you wish. You have legal responsibility’s as a landlord even if she did break it it’s unreasonable for it not to be fixed in a timely manner. It’s your investment, it’s your property, it’s your money.
I have no legal responsibility to repair accidental damage which prevents part of one of the available bathrooms being used. I would wait for the court date on this one, it wouldn't come as the tenant is just trying it on
But we have established, this damage may not be the fault of the tenant, slum Landlord
They were in possession of it when it broke. They are responsible unless they can show otherwise.
So a sliding glass door just shattered out of the blue when she was out?
My Spidey senses are tingling on that claim.
I think the correct approach would have been to replace the door 9 months ago and deduct it from her deposit.
But you are where you are, personally I'd let her take it to court and see what happens. She's probably bullshitting you on that too.
They’re paying for 2 bathrooms it’s not your call “they have another one” isn’t the point you give landlords a bad name, she deserves to be compensated.
The ensuite shower counts as "no shower" from the point of view of all other tenants.
And it's pretty much a private bathroom just for the tenant who pays extra for the privilege.
Sure, in those 2-3 days it might take to get the main one fixed the tenants may come to an extraordinary agreement to use the ensuite, but other than that...what the heck
Difficult to say what way a court might go, but "I told her not to use the broken one until she fixes it" probably isn't going to go in your favour. "Don't use it for a week or so while I sort a replacement"? Sure, but not ten months.
She can't prove she didn't cause the damage. You can't prove she did. Stuff happens, but from either side I'd expect LL to replace.
You say yourself you didn't replace it 'since there was another one' - is that what you would have done in your own home? You'd have other residents regularly traipsing through your bedroom to access the only bathroom? Did this also affect access to a toilet, such that visitors would also need to go via bedroom?
If it's 2 bed/2 bath, and especially if it meant only toilet was en-suite, 30% doesn't actually sound unreasonable to me.
You sound like a horrible landlord. "I didn't fix it because they had another one" THEY ARE PAYING FOR TWO BATHROOMS and the onus is on YOU to fix it not her. 10 months?! You have no excuse.
It's all anecdotal but my parents in law had one fitted in a spare bathroom they don't even use ( they are the sort who have an immaculate spare living room they only use on Christmas Day)
It had been professionally fitted, and a few weeks later just shattered in the night. They are pensioners, it had never been used and could have been far worse.
As far as I know the bathroom company took responsibility and replaced it with no hard feelings, on the basis that sometimes this happens.
In my own limited experience as a landlord there's generally no upside to putting problems off and avoiding them. Equally there's plenty of tenants who know exactly what they are doing and it's not generally their first time.
The whole process needs a better system, good landlords need more protection, bad landlords need to be held more to account and I think there should be some kind of register for tenants so the problematic ones can't just start fresh with a new landlord.
Thankfully out of that game now, far too much stress
You can claim for anything via the small claims route, £250 would have replaced the shower screen
[deleted]
It says in the post it was out of use for 10 months and the rent is £1000
I do agree that the amount she’s asking for is a piss take but I also think it’s a piss take to wait almost a year to fix something like that .. maybe they can meet in the middle somewhere
Thanks, God knows how I missed that!
I agree - both parties are at fault in this, and both parties should come to an agreement, outside the courts.
I think the tenant probably broke the door herself, and would be unable to prove that it happened without her agency. I can get the landlord not wanting to pay for this, and then an impasse develops, and ten months pass etc. Correct course of action would have been to fix it, as soon as was practical, and then take this out of the deposit.
However, I can understand why the landlord would feel unable to trust this tenant, given the claim she's made.
Why are both parties at fault? All I see is a landlord who has failed to carry out a repair in a timely manner. Anything else is conjecture.
It happened to me - the glass exploded in tiny pieces when no one was home. It can be caused by manufacturing imperfections . https://www.meandmyglass.co.uk/blog/why-shower-glass-explodes/
It can also, more commonly, be caused by accidental damage
The initial comment now deleted was questioning how the glass would damage with no one touching it.
Oh usually that is an imperfection, thermal shock causes it to crack, whole sheet pops as it is tempered. Usually sunlight catching at the perfect angle. In theory should happen within the first year of install but we have clouds, curtains and suchlike so can happen years after install.
On a glass door? My money would be on the more likely conclusion than an inherent defect of the glass. Could also be caused by faulty or incorrectly installed hardware I suppose
I have seen this - simply shattered into shards when everyone was out.
I was sitting on the couch at 11pm watching tv and had a drink next to me on the arm of a chair... suddenly the base of the glass sort of exploded (image heavy wine glass base). It was so bizarre (I'd had the glass for maybe a year, been using the same glass for more than one drink so it wasn't rapid cool down)
The landlord can't prove she broke it or not and even if they did, accidents happen in every home. Getting it fixed quickly would have cost the same to the landlord, which would have solved the problem and mostly would have stopped all this stress on both sides. I'm not sure how diy savvy Landlord is, but a shower curtain is like £30, and they could have put it up themselves.
This seems like a problem that could have been avoided.
It does happen, sometimes small cracks and change in temp throughout the year they are safety glass too so shatter into tiny pieces. Happened to my brother the other year and also see it a lot on here and the diyuk sub.
Go to court. She doesn’t have a claim.
She probably took advice from Reddit 🤣🤣🤣
Why are you telling the tenant to fix a shower screen, 100% your responsibility she will win in small claims
It is factually incorrect, anyone saying toughened glass explodes for no reason... there is always a reason, and the VASTLY most likely reason is damage, if the screen had been fitted for more than a few months then the damage is almost certainly caused by the user.
You have breached the contract and you are now in finding out phase of FAFO.
As others have pointed out, youre a bad landlord - appreciate the tenant might have broken it but without any definite proof its wrong to assume they did. Its on you to replace it and you should have done it within days/weeks not months
I hope they can make the claim to teach you a lesson
I would have sent her a bill, not 250
You would look like a twat and lose in court. Tempered glass can shatter of its own accord, and it's the land Lords duty to fix it unless they can prove the tenant was the one that broke it
Have your day in court. If all her evidence amounts to ‘it just magically happened’ then the court will still find that she is liable to repair it. It was working when she moved in.
Just because something is working when she moved in doesn't automatically make her liable for the fix.
It does when it’s a shower door. This isn’t a wear and tear item
Tempered glass does just break on its own sometimes. It's rare but it does happen.
That's the same stuff they use in car windows and gaming computer side panels so you can see all the flashy lights and spinning fans inside.
Check the computer subreddits and car subreddits. They're full of "the glass just smashed on its own" posts. Loads of them.
3 of the 5 leading reasons of tempered glass shattering comes down to external damage/mishandling
https://www.onedayglass.com/top-5-causes-why-tempered-glass-shatters/
You said yourself. Cars use this. Millions of cars on the roads. How many times do you hear of your friends and family talking about randomly exploding windows?
I’m not sure who’s right and who’s wrong in this situation, but I’d certainly be suspicious
No it doesn't. Tempered glass can and does break on its own, stop trying to justify crappy behaviour.
Not at all. You would need evidence that she broke it, not that it broke. Glass does break quite often especially if it is new or fitted incorrectly. No magic required. Just look at all the other replies here.
Secondly it is irrelevant to this case how it broke. If the tenant breaks something you can ask them to pay for it and, if they don’t, deduct it from the deposit - but you still have to actually fix it promptly. Tenant’s claim is on the basis the landlord failed to fix it and thus provide a basic amenity and will likely lose the case. Even if the court determines she broke it all that would happen is the cost of repair would be deducted from the award.
That doesn’t mean she will be awarded thousands in compensation mind. They won’t get the £100 “cleaning fee” for a start, a third rent is likely way too much and is already compensation for loss of usage, so makes no sense to claim ‘compensation’ on top. Overall I suspect not a huge amount more than he has already offered, which he could increase in mediation. If they still don’t accept a mediated resolution the court may take a dim view of the tenant’s unreasonable demands. But to be honest I think it’s very hard to predict so I would try to have a proper calm conversation with some contrition then make a serious offer if I were OP.
I’m not sure I believe this is correct.
Imagine a tenant smashes up the property and then says to the landlord ‘fix it or I’ll take you to court’ this clearly wouldn’t fly.
There’s no proof the door was incorrectly fitted. It could have been there for years - the information isn’t there to decide one way or another
The chance that a property smashes itself up entirely is of course not the same as the chance that a shower screen glass has a manufacturing or fitting fault. Obviously.
Edit: the fact there is isn’t enough information to prove either way is exactly why you cannot conclude as you did that the tenant is automatically at fault. The court will ask the right questions and determine the degree of certainty that the tenant damaged it, but since the a priori chance of it failing is reasonable it would be the default assumption in the absence of evidence to the contrary.
Agreed.
That said, why wait so long to get it repaired?
I'd have repaired it and sent her the bill, as it is beyond normal wear and tear.
But she has rented the place and is responsible for looking after it, no? Unless you have a camera on it showing it randomly exploding on its own, there is no way to prove this.
Every tenant who breaks them (which is likely the case in 999/1000 cases) will just follow this line of “it magically exploded on its own fam”. I’ve done rentals for over 20 years and obviously I live somewhere too and I’ve never had this happen…
Plenty of examples here and elsewhere of this happening to shower screens. Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it never happens.
Either way LL should have fixed it earlier.
They are well known to break randomly and smash to pieces. 10 months for landlord to fix is taking the pee its just a lazy landlord why wouldn't they just want it fixed to keep the tenant happy. Screens cost like £150 and take about 1 hour to fit. I changed mine for a tenant a few months ago it is hardly rocket science if you get the same screen you can even save time by using the old channel. Then bung some silicone job done.