Updating post from Reddit.
For context, I live in a multiple occupancy student flat with all bills included. Our letting agents/landlords have been doing unexpected visits for "maintenance" or telling us their doing this work but they're actually doing something else. Came back the other day after we were told an electrician would be coming round for essential maintenance. Turns out they put a thermostat lock on our thermostat. This is a very old building with lots of draft, in the UK at the moment it is freezing here. Since it's all bills included plus letting agency has set times for heating to come on and off this hasn't been a problem. Our thermostat only clicks on past a certain mark, it's broken they never fixed it. They put a lock on and set it to constantly off. Everyone was shivering cold. I was wondering if what they have done is justified or even legal?
You can spoof the thermostat. It measures the temp in the room, so if you make the thermostat think the room is colder than it really is, then the heating will continue to pump. So for example a wet frozen teatowel placed over the stat will make it think the room is v cold....
Just be prepared that if the landlord still sees the bill increasing they will likely do even more stupid and possibly illegal things. What I'm saying is get a thermometer and record the temps that are happening with the current system and if it's lower than 18 degrees in your bedroom and 21 in the living room while outside is 1 degree that's the bare minimum standard according to: https://www.nrla.org.uk/news/how-cold-is-too-cold-for-a-rented-home
You're a legend thank you, we send our thanks 🙏
This will work for a month. After that the landlord will get a bill and boot you out or hand you the bill. Or both.
Quite frankly, all those "bills included" contracts are just tragedy of the commons situation.
Understand the forces at play before you get yourself in a tent.
You have to have a fair permitted amount in the tenancy agreement to charge extra for utilities and I don’t think 0 heating in winter would cut the mustard. If you provide heading you need to have it maintainable at 21c in the living room and 18c in the bedroom.
Ive seen these stats before and find them insane Id feel ill at those temps and need to open a window
As a legal standard I can 100% accept this to be a fair use temperature, whether you personally need it that high or not. I'm more preferable to 16 in the bedroom, 19.5 in the home.
I'm also extremely warm compared to the average person, to the point I've been called Mr Radiator since a child and I'm that guy who wears shorts in the snow. Lower than those temps though while at home and static and even I will be cold.
19 indoors doesn’t feel the same as 19 outdoors. I’ve been at 19 indoors and still felt cold sometimes, wanting to heat it up to 21 which is where I actually start feeling properly warm.
16 in summer feels much warmer than 16 in winter. And 16 with the heating on feels warmer than 18 with the heating off in winter. Something to do with the latent heat of the walls I believe.
I'm not saying "cope with that". Apparently both parties are at disagreement about the "fair amount".
What I'm saying is that the contract has a permanent source of personal conflict built into it and tampering with electronics is only buying some time. The financial reality will eventually circle back.
The most robust solution would be to amend the contract to PAYG for the bills and eliminate the incentive for both parties to play stupid games.
Nonsense, I rent a property out with all bills included and don't care how much they use as we're all reasonable people. They have no incentive to use more heating than is needed to keep the house warm and the bill is a small fraction of the rent.
I lived in a student flat with bills included. It was a 5 bed flat, the contract had a clear stepped monthly bills allowance based on number of rooms occupied. Think ours was £475 or something.
Very fair and we never exceeded it, had full control over heating. Additionally landlord actually came and fixed all mold issues instead of telling us to just turn the heat up because doing so would be at their cost and not ours
Tbf you can't be trusted when it comes to heating conversations.... You're a penguin and fooling nobody... Rooky mistake Pingu!
> boot you out
I can tell you aren’t familiar with being a landlord. It’s nowhere near that simple.
It is, it's called an S21 6a and sit on your backside until a judge rubberstamps regardless of situation and circumstance and you don't have to justify ANY reason for it.
It's because they're part of the feudal system that still favours the "Landlord", as the legal system is outdated by several hundred years.
Right, so once the S-21 6a is served the landlords waits 2 months, and if the tenant hasn't moved, the landlord then applies for a possession order which even accelerated takes about 2 months, and if they still haven't left, the landlord then applies for a warrant of possession after which they can pay for bailiffs.
There's a heck of a lot of paperwork involved, and if all goes smoothly and the tenant doesn't put up a defence, will take 4-8 months depending on how busy your local court system is (they're all incredibly busy) and cost approximately £1000-2000 depending on bailiffs.
Feudal or not, it's not simple. Any issue - such as the landlords inability to prove that the tenant was shown an EPC rating prior to tenancy commencing, and the whole thing stops.
But if it's not "on", that still won't work.
If all bills are included then buy a few oil filled radiators and use them.
r/maliciouscompliance
Tenancy agreements that include bills usually have a clause prohibiting such heaters. edit to address downvotes: i don't think it's right, it's just the truth of tenancy agreements.
They should probably let them use the heating then :)
The whole system of renting and how much landlords can own needs changing entirely.
I highly doubt any such clause would be enforceable. How would they know the heaters are being used? Landlords can't just turn up and check, they must give 24 hours notice so when they do you just unplug the heater when they arrive.
They can't even do that. It's 24h notice with permission. They still can't enter the home unless it's an emergency.
Not in a HMO with lockable individual let bedrooms. They have a right of access to the common areas. If it’s a regular let then the normal rules apply.
In theory but when I was in a student house our landlord would let himself in 'to do maintenance' and look around. I know they shouldn't but they know students are unlikely to know the law or do anything about it.
Back in the day our landlady would let herself in twice a week. But she would vacuum all the rooms, clean the windows, dust and polish in the communal area and wash any unwashed dishes.. she was awesome though. Though it did encourage you not to leave any underwear on the floor.
Electric blankets?
I'm staying in a friends house while they're in Holiday and I got an electric blanket so I could keep the house heat low. I have it set on 16 during the day and close all doors to the living room she the heat stays in there. With the electric blanket on my lap and a jumper I stay generally warm enough.
Just because it's a clause in a "contract", it doesn't make it a legally enforceable contract clause.
Maybe not, but it'd make your corner harder to fight in court if you've agreed to it. I'm not saying it's right because it isn't. I wasn't saying I even endorse what they do.
edit: grammar
If the LL has stated "all bills included", they then cannot go on to charge the tenant/student more per month IF those bills (such as heating) increase.
A LL CANNOT legally profit from utilities. Charging them above what the bill actually IS is seen as profiting.
If a LL states all bills are included and shuts off certain utilities (ie not providing heating) and the heating bill is at £0, but they're not adjusting the rent accordingly - that is ALSO profiting from utilities.
Legally you MUST be able to heat rooms in your house to 18°C when the temperature reaches -1°C outside. That's not contractual law, that's national law and mandated by the government, no matter what LLs think they are.
If there is no such clause in the contract that states that tenants pay extra if bills increase -
A - You have a greedy landlord. B - You have a greedy landlord acting illegally and breaching their own legal contract. C - This casts reasonable doubt in a court of law if the suing process is initiated.
I'd be firstly checking if the LL holds a valid HMO licence and that a copy of it is displayed in a common area. By law anyone running a Hellhole of Multiple Occupancy MUST display -
The licence itself (as I've previously stated).
The name, address, and telephone number of the licencee or property manager.
A copy of the current gas safety certificate.
If none of these or only one of these things have been done this breaches their licence conditions.
Cant have your cake/rent and eat it. Get them electric heaters on full whack 👍🏻
Electric heater. It will cost them even more. Win win
I'm a landlord now but in my previous life, lived in an HMO.
The landlord was a twat. He had locked off the thermostat and the old radiators just didn't heat the house properly. The temperature in the house was about 15c during the day and around 10c at night. To the point I struggled to get out of bed in the morning.
So, went to Argos and bought myself an oil radiator and kept it on an ambient temperature whenever I was in the room. Didn't care if the landlord saw it cos he was being a total dick by not sorting out the low heating, just ignored me.
Do what you gotta do to keep warm. Just don't take the piss and leave the heater on when you aren't there so you don't burn the whole house down. These heaters do tend to be recalled for safety and whatnot and are not safe to be your main source of heating.
What is your attitude now you're a landlord?
Don't be a dick.
LL or tenant. Judge LL on how they delivered when you needed them. My previous tenants still have my number and will message me when in town. I was like a big bro looking after a lil bro. But I expected lil bro not to trouble me with shit like changing light bulbs and lil bro expected big bro to help out when something was wrong.
Catch ma drift?
Sounds like you're a decent landlord
Had this with my LL of near 14 years…
After 3 years we cut out the agent - split the difference.
Shit always went wrong at 1am, being fairly practical I effected a stay or a quick fix, then let landlord know at a reasonable time.
When the immersion boiler went - I went out and hired a wet & dry - and sucked up the wet. LL told me to deduct any fees I incurred off the rent for next month.
Was an older place - so things going wrong was once a year….
When it was time for him to sell up - he offered me a fair discount and first refusal..
Got my deposit back in days. No quibbles.
Great guy.
Sounds like you may need legal advice from this guy:
The thermostat lock can be taken off as only a flat head screw holds it in place, but thank you
If your tenancy agreement doesn't say anything about not tampering with it, just remove it then?
Unscrew it, change the temperature to something much higher then put it back on again.
just turn off the radiator in the room where the thermostat is. It will sense that room is cold and will run the heating.
Buy an electric heater and blast that thing 24/7
Just buy some electric heaters he'll soon turn normal heating on when electric bill comes in
Buy a DeLonghi Dragon 4 oil filled radiator, you should be able to get one on eBay or marketplace to keep the upfront cost down (new they’re on sale at Argos for £192) best one I’ve ever had.
I survived 5 years in a Victorian upper floor flat, no heating at all. And large ceilings, drafty windows and flooring. That one radiator heated the lounge area roughly 8m x 5m x 3.5m high.
have a look at this for HMO standards and then report to the local environmental health if they are not meeting them.
If it's a wireless thermostat take it off the wall and stick it in your fridge🤙
Pop down to Argos and get yourselves a space heater for each room - they cost a boat load more than central heating
Plug in heaters, lots of plug in heaters.
Buy electric heaters
Oven + fan to circulate the heat around, gas stove etc if spoofing doesn't work well enough, fuck them.
I'd do this with an electric oven/hobs I wouldn't do this with gas. The risk of CO poisoning is too high.
A life skill that has forever paid dividends for me is lock picking.
The locks these landlords use on the thermostat lock boxes are usually cheap. You don't even have to be good at it to succeed. Often, simply raking the pins back and forth will pop it open because there are so few of them.
My workplace recently started locking the thermostat in our office. The management have begun arguing with each other because they're adamant that one of them keeps forgetting to lock it.
You can buy a full set of cheap tools for under £10 on aliexpress. They won't be great, but they'll pick a shit lock with ease.
Most padlocks don't even require tools.
Spinning ones are a joke you can find the combo in mere seconds
You can bypass nearly all other padlocks by sliding down a bit of tin can down where the ball bearing lock it.
And after spending a summer learning to lockpick for fun I was startled by how insecure most locks actually are.
Dam if a complete novice can pick it a pro must literally do it in a flick of the wrists.
Just buy electric space heaters they cost a metric arse ton to run
Get one of those small electrical heaters. MF eat about £10 a day at minimum and work really well.
Electric fan heaters cost about £10.
Kinda wish my landlord would do this. Live in a HMO and the other tenants turn it up so it feels like a sauna.
do you have an oven ?
Turn it on Full leave the oven door open.
Move
Get an electric heater or 2 or 3
I can't imagine why any landlord would offer "bills included" tenancies for exactly this reason.
Id report to local council. HMO standards vary depending on location to an extent but all have a clause requiring a centrally located thermostat with a boost function that is freely available to occupants.
Anything less than that would be a potential breach of s. 73 pt 2 Ha 2004 and enforcable by your local licensing team.
Then if its as could as you say there might also be an assessable hazard under HHSRS for excess cold.
Offer in writing to pay the heating bill so you can control your own comfort like the actual adults that you are. If a “normal” bill in the eyes of the landlord is say £100, offer to decrease rent by £100 and make you liable for the heating bill, so if it goes to £200 it’s not his problem.
If he refuses, threaten legal action. A landlord shouldn’t cap your heating, and with a reasonable offer having been made from your part you’re set to win.
Usually stand clear of all bills included tenancies unless you want to be treated like a child. Personally I have too much pride, I’d pay double market rate before I let anybody tell me how to heat my living space.
Why not simply enforce your basic rights? Use a smart oil filled radiator to monitor the temp and keep it at 18C (bedroom) or 21C (living room). The government set out minimum standards for liveable conditions.
People who are in HMOs are generally there because they couldn’t afford an entire property to rent on their own or are saving up. To squander one’s own money on legal fees, instead of simply implementing one’s rights, makes no sense.
Probably suggest using electric heaters then he will maybe fix it
£11.99, will warm the room very quickly for a small fortune of electricity: https://www.toolstation.com/upright-fan-heater/p62624
When My landlord messed around with the thermostat, I called up the property manager and casually mentioned that I could barely sleep due to the amount of noise my massive fan heater was making being on all night and throughout the day.
It's impressive how fast they moved to fix things
I'm not 100% sure, but I am fairly certain it is illegal for a landlord to carry out maintenance without informing the tenant of when and what is being done. Also, if they keep the temperature below minimum standards, that would be illegal.
If you don't pay for electricity and have an oven, you just found a new but less efficient way to heat your space. There are also space heaters which will cost more to operate. Time to get a couple.
sounds like a good time to get in to bitcoin mining
I'd be visiting Citizens Advice over this because I don't think the LL has rights to impede your use of the property in this way.
As far as I know, you should be able to leave the heating on at 100% and the windows open if you desire and it's their stupid fault for not charging you for usage. If your desired temperature bothers them they should fit individual meters.
I'm sure someone will comment and/or correct me, and their advice may or may not be true, but that's why you use Citizens Advice and not a random reddit page for such a situation.
You are correct. Legally the landlord rental agency cannot do this. You have a rights use them. Get heaters and blast them at full power. He will soon learn.
I'm a bills included landlord and all I see is tenants with heating on and windows open. Pisses me off tbh. Next year they can all pay their own electric and gas. Everything else can stay included.
Landlord or not, that’s just a cunt move on the tenants part
I had to explain to my flat mate once that having the heating on full blast in winter so they can sit in their underwear because ‘they don’t like the feeling of clothes’ was stupid.
They were 31 years old at the time.
I’m not paying for that as a joint tenant, don’t see why a landlord should either - unless you’ve drafted a sloppy tenancy agreement
It’s annoying, but realistically you just have to trust your tenants to have common sense, and shift the bills over to them to deal with
Windows are supposed to be regularly opened to prevent damp.
For 10 mins day, just before the heating goes on, to reduce humidity, yes.
And when cooking, drying clothes, having a shower, cleaning, you've come in wet from outside etc.
Some properties, especially aging social housing requires you to have you heat your home to 18degrees minimum, but due to little to no ventilation you have to keep windows open otherwise damp will build up.
You think I don't know that? These windows are always open. We need a heating controller which only turns on if windows are closed. Only a matter of time - Internet of things is already here.
You sound like a little prick
There was one on the market using alarm sensors but it was pulled. Can try smart radiator valves for similar solution but they can be bypassed
A thermostat is essentially a switch that turns on once it drops below a set temperature. You could disconnect it and then control the heating from the boiler.
They probably meant thermostat knobs that directly sit on the valve of the radiator, they're fully mechanical, no electronics in them.
But your idea isn't fully off, as you can screw them off and have the heater plast at full power as the valve is then fully open.