Updating post from Reddit.
Accidental landlord here - we rent our new build flat (7 years old) to my cousin. We kept the flat spotless, and whilst I’m not judging how someone lives, the flat is actually really dirty. The limescale all over the taps is horrible, the toilet and bath is completely discoloured, and there is thick hair all over the carpet. We have a close relationship, and see her often. I’ve hinted a few times about using products like Viakal for limescale etc, but she’s never used it. It’s really depressing when we go over as the flat just looks horrible now!
This is a relationship question. You really don't want to rent to family/friends.
I think you just have to respect her privacy and how she wishes to live. Beyond pointing out that the place should be returned in a clean condition I think you should just ignore the issue.
It's not your business unless it's causing material damage to the flat (and even then it's often not worth it). Just mention it on the inspection reports every 6 months and then charge for a professional clean at the end of the tenancy. Bear in mind though that you'd expect to redecorate every 5 years anyway.
If you get depressed when you go over there, don't go over. Get a managing agent to do inspections.
Tenants never keep your property in the condition you would. But you're just the owner now, it's their home. They can live however they want and you don't get a say. Next time, don't rent to relatives. Second quickest way to fall out after loaning money (which will probably happen soon when they "just need a few more days to get the rent to you").
Thank you. So hard to not look at it and feel depressed as it was such a beautiful first home for us. I have another property that has been re decorated twice in the last 4 years, as I want them to look in top spec. I can only assume the landlords that don’t care how people treat their properties are rogue landlords!
Rather than telling or asking them to clean up their act perhaps ask them when it would be a convenient day for a cleaning company to have access to the property. It might set alarm bells off that it might mean there's a big bill on its way for them. You might get a response of "Oh! No need to do that, we were going to clean up anyway!"
That’s a good idea!
She pays you rent. This makes it her home to live in however she wants to live. If you don't want someone else to live there, then don't "accidentally" accept money from them.
What a rude answer. As a landlord I have an responsibility to maintain my property to a certain level, if something breaks then I’ll fix it straight away. As a tenant, she also has a responsibility to maintain the property to a standard. Do you not do checks on your rentals to make sure everything is ok..?
No, sorry, you don't understand what being a landlord entails. Landlords have no legal right to enforce standards of cleanliness on tenants. FlumpSpoon is correct to say that you do not have the ability to compel your tenant to clean the sinks etc, unless you also live in the property (presumably you don't?).
If you think that you do have such a legal right, assuming that there's still a fixed term contract in effect, then your recourse is to attempt a Section 8 eviction on your tenant. An attempt to evict on the grounds of limescale in the sink and hair on the carpet would certainly fail.
The exception would be if the uncleanliness is causing significant damage to the property. It looking a bit grubby isn't damage though.
I think yes good landlords do but also if it wasn’t family and it was an annual inspection you’d note down the issues in a report and share the feedback to the tenant with a request to action. The consequences are either not renewing, and on exit deposit deduction. Your issue is that you’re treading on eggshells since you know them well. But also at best you can ask politely now but tell them if they ever leave then you’ll get everything professionally cleaned at their cost/deposit deduction so there is no upset. Tell them it’s cheaper to clean it regularly than for you to deduct their deposit. Also tell them the risks of damage to surfaces etc. basically make out it’s cheaper and easier for them to maintain these things vs being out of pocket if they ever move out. Assuming you have a deposit and an ast which should state that they need to keep the place to a basic standard
Thank you that’s helpful, and my thoughts exactly. If they leave and the place is in a terrible condition then we would have to replace the bath, toilet etc.
And you'd claim that from the deposit at that point in time.
You need to sell the property. You aren't cut out to be a landlord as you are still viewing the property as being your place to live. It's a business asset now.
Rule 1: never rent out to family
Rule 2: tennats should not be friends so don't get friendly with tennants keep things strictly business once you get friendly they may ask for favours like delayed rent payments
Thanks. Won’t be evicting her so unfortunately your answer doesn’t really help
Sounds like it will need an end of tenancy deep clean.
>How to tell a [tenant] to clean!
You don't. You ensure you have enough money for a professional clean at the end of the tenancy. The property is theirs to live in as they like, as long as it’s not causing any permanent damage.
>It’s really depressing when we go over
You need to maintain a professional distance.
It’s their cousin, maybe they go over to see them not the flat?
It’s always the risk with letting to family. I am in the same situation as you. Literally couldn’t even bear visiting the house because of how dirty it is and at the moment my elderly spouse’s dad and sister lives there. I am just putting aside money every month to at some point clean it up before selling and refurb. Can’t throw them off the street too as they will literally be homeless in this current pressure with housing market shortage
It’s hard isn’t it. I think myself and husband will stop going over as it just doesn’t do as any good
I mean in your position, if you think your cousin can actually rent elsewhere, I will give her warning as landlord and say that if she doesn’t clean then it will create problems later for YOUR property. Give her notice if she doesn’t change and rent it to someone else.
In my case, I had no choice but to carry on as otherwise I won’t sleep at night knowing that elderly and disabled person is made homeless because of me. Plus they won’t get any other property or landlord renting to them because that’s just how the market is. Hence I made this my problem but you don’t really have to. Not being mean but just be realistic
Probably best to just tell her straight up, xyz needs to be accomplished, please and thank you.
Don't leave it open for Interpretation, just be straight but chill about it. You won't evict, good on you to support your family, but maybe ask her for a similar level of respect.
Thank you that’s really helpful
Did you take a deposit?
Remind them that when returning the property it needs to be in a similar condition to when they moved in, otherwise you'll have to charge them for a professional clean
Thanks. In all honesty, I don’t think she has any plans to leave the property anytime soon, but I don’t want to have to replace tap and sanitary ware due to just not cleaning effectively.
If it was a non-relative tenant, would you be as upset? Would you be over there as much?
It's part and parcel of being a landlord. The fact she is a relative may just be making you think you should be able to make her clean.
No I think if it was a non relative I would be just as upset but would be able to be a lot more firm with them. I think best option for now is just not to visit as much, out of sight out of mind!
I would treat it like it was a stranger and you're running a business. Keep the renting side very formal.
Do inspections. Write down what needs addressing. Agree a follow on date to revisit. If no improvement, agree to get a professional to address it and you'll deduct it from their deposit.
Also if you have a mortgage on your property & insurance then you should have got their permission. Very rarely do they allow you to rent to family and your policy will likely be void if you've breached terms.
Lot of muppets preaching law over morals in the thread. Don't be too disheartened, it's a typical redditor tips hat response. Yeah, they're filthy scum. Have words for them to sort it out, you'll inspect whenever you please - it's your property. If not, kick em out. They're no doubt getting mates rates - they can pay extra to mess up someone else's place who doesn't care about them.
Your response is brilliant, thank you!
A couple of questions:
Is this a proper tenancy with deposit scheme and contract and market rates for rent? (Hopefully an inventory as well, with pictures).
Or is it lower rent, no contract, no deposit type of arrangement?
I ask because it makes a difference as to your options for handling this.
I have tenants who have plastered the kids wall with blue tac sticky stuff for posters and pictures. Floor to ceiling. I mentally wince very time I inspect the property when I think about having to stain block all those oily marks. They don't wipe down window frames so they look grubby and black (brand new windows just before their tenancy began) and so yes, I can totally empathise with the sinking feeling of wishing they would just care for things slightly better. But here's the thing, whether friend, relative or just business, they never treat things as their own.
You have some blurred lines here though: you are making social visits to your business property, and that makes things complicated. You feel unable to speak to this person as a tenant, so you are stuck with things as they are, unless you are going to have a business conversation. Either way on an interpersonal level things could end badly since the air never gets cleared, and you feel aggrieved. The interpersonal stuff then gets in the way of the legal route.
So, back to my original question, are they on a proper tenancy, or are they on an informal arrangement of some kind?
Tenancy agreement in place, and paying market value too. We didn’t take a deposit however (our mistake) and she’s been there 2 years and most definitely has no plans to move anytime soon. It’s great in one aspect because we know we’ll have the rent for the foreseeable, but also disappointing with the above. But you’re right we’re mixing business and socials, I think we’ll have to stop going over there!!
Well, avoidance won't be the answer either. You may need to book a tenancy review or something, to keep it separate from day to day. Maybe slide a hamper of cleaning products over the table at the same time and gently point out that limescale and accumulation of dust can start to cause damage. It won't be very popular, but at least you have done it in a more formal way than being a guest, then stewing silently, then avoiding them.
Be aware will be tough to evict her if no deposit...so better to talk to her straight and aim for a fruitful and clean ongoing tenancy!
FYI, I'm not a landlord. But maybe you can approach it in a way of "as your friend I couldn't care less of how you clean or don't clean, but as your landlord and owner of this property, I am expecting the space to be kept to a certain standard".
Hair in the carpet could be seen as a non problem, but buildup of limescale that is discolouring the bath and toilet can be difficult to get clean if it's left too long.
Thanks, I do believe that tenants should keep the property to a certain standard. The last thing we’d want to do is if she moves out, is bill her to replace a new bath, sink etc
Just boot her out and get a way better tenant in. So what if she's related, she's taking the absolute piss
I disagree with some of these comments. You can agree to s certain level of cleanliness and have official inspections. But this wills have been needed to be agreed in advance plus have an official chucking in inventory done by third party with a written report and photos. This way at an official inspection, it could be noted the damages that have been done and wear and tear.
You would then have photos to illustrate the state of the bath and taps. By having the independent third party report and photos, it is not YOU telling your relative to clean. It is the report illustrating what needs to be cleaned/remediated.
Your family member may just be blind to this as this is just the way they live.
You could also stipulate that annual professional carpet cleaning be done. That sort of thing.
Do know though, carpets are meant to be replaced and walls repainted in rentals at fairly regular intervals compared to if it were just your home.
Thank you, agree with everything you’ve said. I have another rental and that has been fully redecorated every 2 years. But in all honesty with this other flat, I don’t know how anyone could clean the carpets or paint the walls as she’s verging on being a hoarder.