Updating post from Reddit.

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INFORMATION
Posted by Netzero1967 3 weeks ago
F***ing mad - air source heat pump very poor

Just spent £12,500 to replace LPG boiler in a BTL property with an air source heat pump.

Done EPC rating today, to be marked as poor for both heating and hot water.

Had to press EPC rater to get an E rating, so we can rent out. It was rated as G. So at least that moved up. BUT didn’t think heat pump would be rated as very poor.

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Posted by Sea_Arm_4338 3 weeks ago

I used to be an EPC assessor and the software and gradings are so archaic and outdated, the software generally prefers gas heating as it is cheaper per kilowatt, compared with electric. Honestly, they aren’t worth the paper they’re written on.

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Posted by TravelOwn4386 3 weeks ago

Exactly this and sucks they are forcing landlords to get a c without fixing it or making common sense part of the grading.

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Posted by PayApprehensive6181 3 weeks ago

I believe there is a review of the whole epc assessment which is revisiting how the calculations are done.

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Posted by TravelOwn4386 3 weeks ago

What I don't like is they will more than likely favour the government pushing tech such as ground source heat pumps and render perfectly fine systems such as combi boilers as bad. How much perfect systems will be ripped out prematurely to try and hit targets. Guess we will have to wait and see.

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Posted by Informal_Drawing 3 weeks ago

Combi boilers are fairly bad compared to a heat pump though.

It's just what people are used to but the figures are what the figures are.

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Posted by TravelOwn4386 3 weeks ago

And so is replacing it if it's brand new or got lots of life left. We need to start questioning the impact of replacing things just because something greener comes along i mean really old systems are a no brainer but the environmental impact of replacing things. Most parts are sourced from china and just put together in england. We are literally shipping crap across the world just to say oh wow i have the latest green tech. When we rip out old systems where do you think it goes? Back across the globe to either indian open air dumps where kids sort through it for anything of value or it ends up in china to be reused. Just seems like we could be doing a lot more for the environment by putting some common sense into this epc made up crap.

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Posted by Informal_Drawing 3 weeks ago

Engineers can work out the pay back period.

This is normal stuff for them.

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Posted by myri9886 3 weeks ago

Gas boilers are cheaper to run through and thus they will be higher rated on EPC

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Posted by Informal_Drawing 3 weeks ago

I don't believe they are.

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Posted by No_Tax3422 3 weeks ago

Need to define terms- in many contexts combi boilers are a very effective solution compared to heat pumps. The two common German condensing combi's are A rated (over 90% efficient).

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Posted by Automatic-Source6727 3 weeks ago

Space heater is 100% efficient, heat pumps are multiple 100's% efficient.

If efficiency is the only metric then gas boilers are about the least efficient method for heating available.

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Posted by No_Tax3422 3 weeks ago

I quite agree that electricity is 100% efficient, heat pumps CoP in the summer many times that. Take a step back though and the problems with heat pumps begin to emerge. Their winter efficiency drops until their CoP is barely better than just running a bar fire; below freezing they are a liability. In cold and wet Scotland, we are seeing defrosting cycles running multiple times a day, which requires heating. Not very efficient.

Beyond efficiency, they are sometimes proving ineffective. Homes need to be very well insulated to benefit from the lower heat produced, preferably airtight with Heat Recovery systems. So not cheap to retrofit in existing housing stock. Often done badly, there are numerous tales of systems simply not being able to perform.

The other issue is that electricity costs are traditionally multiples of gas and guess where half our electricity comes from? Power Stations run on gas. So the overall efficiency of heating a home with power which began life as gas, burnt to produce heat, converted into electricity, sent down the line (with transmission losses) then arriving at the heat pump to be transformed back into heat is?

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Posted by Automatic-Source6727 3 weeks ago

It definitely has to be tailored to the property, but heat pumps are amazing when appropriate, by far the most efficient method of heating, even if the local power station is gas.

Ground source solves a lot of the problems with colder temperatures, and obviously different units will be designed for different use-cases, definitely shouldn't be discounted though.

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Posted by jeff43568 3 weeks ago

Winter efficiency is not close to a bar fire.

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Posted by Informal_Drawing 3 weeks ago

90% versus 200-300% when averaged across a year.

Gas boilers are not very efficient compared to newer technology.

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Posted by Slightly_Effective 3 weeks ago

But ASHP is also pushed by the government and hasn't helped here.

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Posted by BitTwp 3 weeks ago

It's not like we don't know this. But rules is rules.

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Posted by Long-Incident7862 3 weeks ago

The assumed none is killing the rating, the flat roof should have insulation they are just assuming none. Same for the slab.

You could improve the rating by opening up a small section of the plasterboard to prove it. If it doesn’t then you will know and can add some.

Long term the G rating won’t cut it. You are also likely to put off some renters as it would be super expensive to heat.

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Posted by Whisky-Toad 3 weeks ago

If it doesn’t then just add a big square of it where you opened up a hole, checkmate.

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Posted by MyAccidentalAccount 3 weeks ago

Found the real landlord!

😜🤣🤣

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Posted by chabybaloo 3 weeks ago

I got 500mm loft insulation.....around the hatch

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Posted by Long-Incident7862 3 weeks ago

Do you paint your hinges? 😂👏

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Posted by Odd-Cake8015 3 weeks ago

r/Angryupvote

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Posted by Scasne 3 weeks ago

Work in an architects and did a semi-d block of flats and due to being finished at slightly different times were rated under slightly different regimes so same spec, heating etc but different ratings.

The idea behind them is good but as per usual with government stuff it's implemented in a way that isn't really fit for purpose.

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Posted by GT_Running 3 weeks ago

How did you not know what the outcome would be from the installer ahead of time?

EPCs are for the cost to run a home, not the carbon emitted.

Solar gets you a higher EPC per pound spent.

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Posted by Netzero1967 3 weeks ago

Cos the guy did the property for us before , when it was rated G. Had to get exemption while tenant was in property.

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Posted by PayApprehensive6181 3 weeks ago

You would have qualified for exemption after spending over £10k. Might have been a better option than getting it to an E

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Posted by Odd-End-1831 3 weeks ago

It looks like the surveyor has entered the main heating source incorrectly. Ask him to check his heating code and the secondary heating. The EPC is wrong not the score from an ASHP

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Posted by b1tchlasagna 3 weeks ago

Fwiw it seems it will be EPC C by 2030 if you can get information about insulation

I'm looking to decarbonise the hell out of my house

https://www.elmhurstenergy.co.uk/blog/2024/10/01/epc-reform-consultation-expected-this-winter/

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Posted by ralaman 3 weeks ago

New update coming next year. Should account for heat pumps more. And room in roofs

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Posted by my__socrates__note 3 weeks ago

Roof rooms are far more complicated, and heat pumps will have the same outcomes as the unit prices used to calculate the rating haven't changed

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Posted by Netzero1967 3 weeks ago

I know but don’t want to wait that long to rent out. Only cost £50 for EPC rating and needed E or higher to rent out

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Posted by __---------- 3 weeks ago

Just forge it.

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Posted by ADHenchD 3 weeks ago

Worst advice here, crime 😂

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Posted by -Rosch- 3 weeks ago

Wonder why landlords gets a bad rep 😂

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Posted by Long-Incident7862 3 weeks ago

Im sure the heat pump will get a better rating in time to come. On this relentless march to energy efficiency the minimum rating to rent will only get higher.

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Posted by DoireK 3 weeks ago

Which is a good thing

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Posted by Informal_Drawing 3 weeks ago

Absolutely right.

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Posted by wonderhui 3 weeks ago

We have a heat pump and it's fantastic. Really warm and low energy usage.

However we got our EPC redone, and like yours it comes out badly because of the assessment software they use. EPC assessment needs an overhaul.

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Posted by my__socrates__note 3 weeks ago

Was there a recommendation on your EPC to put a heat pump in?

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Posted by wonderhui 3 weeks ago

No. We did it anyway

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Posted by my__socrates__note 3 weeks ago

Well then you can't really complain that it impacted your rating

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Posted by Automatic-Source6727 3 weeks ago

Going for the best option over gaming an archiac rating system isn't a bad move.

Definitely should be complaining, it needs updating.

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Posted by throwaway_39157 3 weeks ago

Send the assessor a copy of your MCS certificate for the ASHP install as if they can select the exact model and design flow temperature in the EPC software it will improve the score. Also be sure to confirm if it is configured for weather compensation (and send photos showing this) as this may again bump it up.

If you just add generic ASHP the rating is always cr@p if you select the specific unit and if it has weather compensation or not you can make some improvements.

You could look to solar or to WWHR to make further improvements (WWHR gives a good improvement and while has some capital costs is no maintenance and lasts for decades).

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Posted by blizeH 3 weeks ago

This should be the top comment - see this all the time in ASHP groups, just putting “heat plump” will tank the EPC, but putting in the specific model will improve it. Please ask your assessor to fix it and report back OP! /u/netzero1967

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Posted by J_Artiz 3 weeks ago

They are reviewing the way that the EPC is calculated and I'd imagine during this government they'll make changes to positively impact EPCs with Air Source Heat Pumps.

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Posted by TheBlightspawn 3 weeks ago

Yep EPC is a measure of efficiency (cost) so gas boilers are better for your EPC than Heat pumps but worse for the environment.

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Posted by Opening-Big666 3 weeks ago

This does not surprise me. EPC calculation is just plain weird. I need to replace a dual flue gas boiler and have been told that putting an electric one in will be bad for my EPC rating as it uses more energy than a gas one.

When the requirement moves to “C” I don’t think it will be possible to rent out the property without shelling out a shed load of money.

I get that the environment is important but a poor EPC rating should demand a lower rent and market forces will dictate what happens next for either the owner or tenant.

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Posted by my__socrates__note 3 weeks ago

Poor means that the cost rating of the heating is between 7.41 and 10.66 p/kWh, from a unit price of 13.19 p/kWh divided by the efficiency of the system, then multiplied by (1 + 0.29*(1.0 – responsiveness))

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Posted by capcrunch217 3 weeks ago

Working for a house builder, and as someone that engineers a lot of retrofit and regeneration projects, this is a problem I know very well. I will underline that this is a stupid problem to exist, and one which is easily solvable if the government can pull their finger out and properly listen to a consultation response.

Essentially the calculations are out of date.

SAP ratings are used to measure building energy efficiency in respect to the CO2 emissions of the building. This is the mode of compliance under Part L of the Building Regulations and crucially was updated in 2021 to account for how much greener the national grid has become per kWh of electricity produced. I am grossly oversimplifying but when considering heating systems, any properties that opt for electric heating opposed to gas, LPG, oil, coal etc will have lower CO2 emissions and therefore the building will have a better SAP rating. SAP is generally only used for new build and conversion properties as a tool to meet the Building Regulations, it is not intended for consumers. Most existing stock on the market are not required to meet these requirements. For consumers, however, all this means is that the better insulated and more efficient your home is, the better it scores on its SAP.

EPC ratings also represent a given buildings energy efficiency but crucially is a measure of how much it costs to run the building – it takes no regard of CO2 production like SAP. EPCs are the primary mode of evaluating building performance for the purpose of informing consumers at sale and rental of residential property. EPCs apply to every single home in the UK market, both old and new and as you have discovered, the EPC system prevents poor performing homes from being let on the market. Unfortunately, the calculation method for EPC is the direct inverse to SAP in that electric heating is the most expensive form of heating, so you get penalised for installing it.

The government (previously under Sunak and now again, recently, under Kier) are looking at introducing mandatory energy efficiency (MEES) targets for residential buildings. This will mandate that all rental properties achieve an EPC C rating in order to be eligible to rented out by a landlord. This is to try and modernise the UK building stock and make it more energy efficient. Unfortunately, as outlined above, the EPC methodology only concerns running costs, not CO2. There are currently no discussion that consider the vast disparity between gas and electric prices, and currently anyone who has taken an initiative to migrate from burning fuel appliances to electric (i.e.. replacing gas boiler with a heat pump) will find themselves on the wrong side of the law come 2030.

So long story short, the government needs to amend how EPC works to take account of CO2 emissions and rebase this against the cost per kWh. Only then will the system work as its intended.

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Posted by bath_onion 3 weeks ago

I think you're confusing the new build compliance metrics with what's actually on an EPC. SAP and RdSAP both produce an EER, EIR, tonnes of carbon, carbon per square metre, and primary energy. Only the EER is cost-based and the primary output metric shown on the EPC. If you look at a SAP XML, you'll see them all.

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Posted by capcrunch217 3 weeks ago

No I’m specifically cherry picking the bits that are relevant to consumers. I’ve worked with SAP for 13 years. Previously under SAP 2012 any inclusion of electric heating practically destroyed the results as they were based on 2012 statistics for co2/kWh. That’s why you saw everyone slapping solar PV on almost everything to achieve the DER rating as it had a huge offset advantage. Under the new SAP 10 (2021) this no longer works as the grid has significantly decarbonised and each kWh of electricity produces significantly less CO2 than it did in 2012. It now makes more sense to specify electric heating systems that are more efficient than gas because of the CO2 offset. The government are incentivising a move from burning fossil fuels in all parts of the sector, and SAP 10 makes it very difficult to comply otherwise.

What hasn’t changed to reflect the new SAP 10 is RdSAP. This still works under 2012 figures meaning electric heating gets penalised in EPCs issued for consumers. It is due for an update next year, but I’m not clear whether the cost metric that is the current difficulty will be fixed.

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Posted by Confident-Ganache411 3 weeks ago

Heat pumps really don't work energy efficiently in the UK for any properties built pre-1960 and/or bigger than 70 sqm. It's a real blunder for UK Govt to keep pushing for them when performance is so property dependent.

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Posted by Jakes_Snake_ 3 weeks ago

I’d spend 12.5k on the other items so no need for the green bling.

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Posted by Additional-Bike-9688 3 weeks ago

Sounds like you don't understand what an EPC is...

How is it possible this is a surprise to you?

If you can't grasp something this basic you're probably in the wrong game maybe put your money into an index fund instead.

Money saving expert has some great tips for someone new to investing!

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Posted by Certain-Doughnut3181 3 weeks ago

That's because air source heat pumps are useless on a building scale smaller than a warehouse. They have to be supplemented by a heater in cold weather. Dead end technology, always has been Ground source heat pump is slightly better and scalable.

Associate Director in a land agency/renewables/BNG field

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Posted by theorem_llama 3 weeks ago

>That's because air source heat pumps are useless on a building scale smaller than a warehouse.

Talking out your arse and scientifically illiterate, great combination.

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Posted by Lebusmagic 3 weeks ago

BS, BP or Shell employee?

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Posted by TobblyWobbly 3 weeks ago

We've had an air source pump in a 4 bedroom bungalow for five years. It's always warm in here. We've haf no need for any supplementary heaters. I think there may be a few heaters in the attic, but those haven't been used since they switched the pump on.

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Posted by Slightly_Effective 3 weeks ago

They mean the ASHP itself needs to run a heater in certain low temperature situations to continue operating, not that your home needs extra heaters within it.

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Posted by jeff43568 3 weeks ago

A defrost cycle on the air source heat pump is not the same as using supplemental electric heating in the winter.

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Posted by disposeable1200 3 weeks ago

Someone doesn't know what they're on about.

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Posted by Informal_Drawing 3 weeks ago

Associate Director of the not knowing what you're on about department?

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Posted by b1tchlasagna 3 weeks ago

>Associate Director in a land agency/renewables/BNG field

So you're not an engineer. Heat pumps get COPs of 4-5+ if installed correctly

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Posted by Inevitable_Stage_627 3 weeks ago

Heat pumps are dreadful!

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Posted by Netzero1967 3 weeks ago

mine cost £12,500. although after govt grant i have paid £5,000. that includes a full re-pipe, all new radiators.

it sound noisy, i feel sorry for the neighbours lol

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Posted by Iyotanka1985 3 weeks ago

It shouldn't be noisy, and unless you have bloody long radiators (like 9ft+) underfloor is the goto for heat pump.

Radiators really make the unit work hard (probably why it's noisy).

We had issues with ours as it cost a fortune, was noisy and house was always cold. We moved in with it already installed and complained about it to the HA until the actual installer had a look and replaced the entire unit (warranty issue) and fitted anti vibration blocks and connected the underfloor heating ( it had both underfloor pipes and radiators, installer assumed when they replaced the boiler they hooked it back up to the radiators instead of the underfloor) radiators got removed and the house became toasty, quiet and very cheap to run.

Kinda miss it now we have moved again and back on a combi boiler especially as the savings would of doubled up with the electric car tariff being insanely low.

But anyway , the installer couldn't stress enough how radiators are just shite for air source, even the huge ones.

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Posted by Inevitable_Stage_627 3 weeks ago

They are noisy and they don’t efficiently heat a property, despite all the governments preaching. Feel sorry for both tenants and neighbours!

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Posted by benjm88 3 weeks ago

If you ignore that they produce 3 to 4 times the output of heat to energy they consume I suppose so

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Posted by Objective-Idea-3670 3 weeks ago

The efficiency of heat pumps, aka a big reverse refrigerator with the coldside outside and the hotside inside is largely overstated. In order to boil and condense the refrigerant the compressor motor has to work Very Very Hard to force it through the low and high pressure system. It’s not a wire on fire like a resistive heater, but it’s still a lot of work.

The ubuiquity of the term ‘heat pump’ is one of the most successful ever rebrands of technology invented in 1911 ever made.

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Posted by aitorbk 3 weeks ago

It absolutely is efficient, and should be relatively noise free if good quality and installed correctly.

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Posted by Objective-Idea-3670 3 weeks ago

No motor nor air wafting fan on earth is silent mate. You need your ears tested.

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Posted by benjm88 3 weeks ago

Relatively noise free does not mean silent

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Posted by aitorbk 3 weeks ago

A modern compressor is 45 to 50dB. While not silent, it is not a major hassle.

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Posted by adam_dup 3 weeks ago

Let's book him in at the same time we book your comprehension test

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Posted by jeff43568 3 weeks ago

My boiler makes noise when it's on.

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Posted by Iyotanka1985 3 weeks ago

As our installer stated , if the house/budget can't choose underfloor heating air source is not a viable option at all. After experiencing both the radiator and underfloor in the same property I would have to agree with him.

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Posted by tiplinix 3 weeks ago

It can work without underfloor if the radiators are big enough. Underfloor heating is the best setup as it has the most surface area which means low flow temperature. The lower the flow temperature is the more efficient the unit runs.

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Posted by Iyotanka1985 3 weeks ago

Yeah but most affordable new build houses cannot/do not fit the ideal size needed in most of the rooms , typically only living rooms, dining rooms and often master bedrooms. Obviously older houses have much bigger rooms but they come with their own issues.

This cannot fit/do not fit is giving heat pumps a bad name as they are having to work harder for less results costing more to run and being loud to boot.

If you're going to install a heat pump, you should advise the ideal set up not the half job that costs more to run.

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Posted by tiplinix 3 weeks ago

I agree with you.

Unless the home is well insulated, it's really hard to fit radiators that will work well with heat pump. If I was to install a heat pump I wouldn't go without underfloor heating (unless if it's for a small room that doesn't need much heating).

Don't get me started of new builds with inadequate heating systems. I've seen some with electric heaters. Some developers have no shame.

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Posted by PM_ME_YOUR_HAGGIS_ 3 weeks ago

Mine is fantastic

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Posted by theorem_llama 3 weeks ago

>Heat pumps are dreadful!

Nope, they're actually really fucking good.

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Posted by morewhitenoise 3 weeks ago

EPC and ESG is a scam. ASHP waste of money and not efficient.

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Posted by theorem_llama 3 weeks ago

>ASHP waste of money and not efficient.

They often get SCOPs between 300-400%, how is that not efficient you wassock.

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Posted by Ok_Project_2613 3 weeks ago

Energy efficient they are.

Cost efficient they aren't.

Gas is so much cheaper than electricity currently that even with high COPs, it's likely still cheaper to have gas.

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Posted by theorem_llama 3 weeks ago

>Gas is so much cheaper than electricity

Yeah, about three to four times cheaper. So ASHP can often end up being a bit cheaper to run if you get a good install, particularly if you have a tariff that makes it cheaper to reheat the tank overnight.

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Posted by Responsible-Age8664 3 weeks ago

Heat pumps are shit. Some woke bollocks to get make people poorer. Very much like electric cars. Stop following the crowd and use your head. The majority of people who have installed them have regrets

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Posted by tiplinix 3 weeks ago

They have regrets because they got a shit installer that sold them a solution that's not adequate for their home.

Heat pumps work really well with underfloor heating (otherwise you need big radiators as the system need to work with a low flow temperature) and a somewhat well insulated home. There's no magic to it.

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Posted by jeff43568 3 weeks ago

'majority'. I'm absolutely sure that is not true. The main issue with heat pumps is cowboys doing poor installation, the other issue is to do with the price of electricity being artificially pegged to the price of gas.

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