Updating post from Reddit.
Timeline, in case it is useful to anyone, flat is in North London, and County Court is Edmonton
Sept 2023 - S21 served
Dec 2024 - Application to county court using eviction specialist solicitors
Feb 2024 - County court hearing and Possession order granted
Mar 2024 - Possession order notice recieved (took the court over 4 weeks to just send the notice of possession so we could send it back to them to start the application for the bailiffs)
Apr 2024 - Jun 2024 - Frequently chased up county court by email and phone (to general switchboard) trying to get information on when the bailiffs appointment had been set. No response even though they cashed the cheque in April.
July 2024 - advised of bailiff appointment
Nov 2024 - bailiff visited and tenant departed
Took approximately 13.5 months to get vacant posession after the S21 notice was served. This could have been shortened by a few months if we had transferred to the high court.
Biggest takeaway was how in absolute disarray the county courts are, not just delays, but a range of administrative issues.
Oh only other thing to note is that during the bailiffs visit and chatting to them, they said that we got lucky with 5 months between notification of an appointment and the visit, since it has now increased significantly.
Please let us know for information how much did it cost and who will pay the legal fees ? Tenants?
Did they paid the rent ? What about the property any damage ?
Tried to respond but it disappeared. The tenant wanted to be housed by the council, they had been in the property 6 years, they had a child and it was far too small for the family. They continued paying rent. They needed to go all the way till the bailiffs turned up for the council to put them in temporary accom.
Cost was therefore only 2k for court & bailiff costs, solicitor and hearing representation costs. No property damage, we were lucky.
From the usuall stories in similar subreddits about situations similar to this, it was indeed a lucky eviction
Oh and at the hearing we got just the scheduled costs so between £300-400 awarded to us, I forget the exact amount.
Tenants reading this - this is why Landlords are so arsey about who they let their properties to. Do you see why we want to give it to someone presenting the least amount of risk? Do you also see that's its OUR property and we want to protect it at all costs?
The landlord wanted the property back and the tenant wanted to be housed by the council. They paid rent, and there was no damage to the property.
I read this and the comments that have followed that it was actually quite amicable between the landlord and the tenant.
I mean the OP was lucky, the tenant was paying throughout the whole process, it was an agreement to get them more space in a council house but they couldn't get one unless they went all the way and were evicted by bailiffs.
100%.
I'm saving this thread for the next 'give people a chance' thread.
Hell no. I want solid job. Good credit. references. First born child. Guarantor. Beloved pet as a hostage. Etc
Why don’t you get a real job?
They could ask the same to you.
Because they have no more idea what your job is you do theirs...
This has literally nothing to do with what OP posted. OP and the tenants were essentially going through this process together to achieve the best outcome for both of them- they were equally invested in the S21 process being quick and smooth.
What's the issue he was being paid
How fucking dare tenants pay YOUR mortgage and have the absolute audacity to then protect THEIR own interests when noone else will.
Landlords reading this - this is why you are a generally despised class of people. You probably have your nice home with some semblance of security, very probably funded by inheritance or some sort of income not actually earned through your own blood and sweat. We tenants, who I can assure you, are NOT usually tenants out of choice, but people who can only dream of home ownership (with the benefits that brings) as a direct result of people like you using peoples unfortunate housing situations as financial investments.
Gotta ask- how did you get that from what was posted above? Or did you reply to the wrong post?
Na, just venting at my general distaste to the tone of the post above mine.
In all honesty, whilst I don't necessarily like the way housing works these days, I do get the landlord perspective. And I understand it. But there is a tenants side to the story - there is next to no social housing available, which forces us undesirables into private rentals. When it then goes tits up for us (landlord wants to sell, put the rent up, not maintaining the property etc.), we are then forced to play the game with the council and the court system. You think the average Joe tenant wants to go through the hassle of it all?
On this one it was relatively amicable, we had good relations with the tenant, had not increased the rent in 6 years. No issues with repairs except a leak from the bathroom of the flat above once which we quickly sorted. Was freshly decorated and furniture was new at the start of the tenancy although granted it looks a bit knackered now. This S21 related to the tenants wanting a bigger home because they had had a child and were growing, and this being a tiny 1 bed flat. So they wanted the eviction to access council housing. We also wanted to sell to allow us to get out of the rental market and also to go from a flat to a house with a growing family.
The flat was not purchased as a BTL, but sometimes when you get into relationships and move in together you don't want to sell your home in case the relationship sours.
You hit the nail on the head there with next to no social housing. Why not direct the blame where it's due though. Ineffective and short sighted government from both parties selling it off and refusing to build more.
The housing crisis largely boils down to government fuck up since thatcher. Yet instead of blaming the government everyone blames landlords or immigration etc.
Not all tenants and not all landlords should be tarred with the same brush. Some landlords have worked 7 days for a long time to invest for something in their future while providing a nice home for others and look after their tenants, with some understanding when they’re late or struggling in the hope that those landlords will be treated with equal respect and not “despised”, or sworn at by bitter individuals
For sure.
But your business investment is, unfortunately, someone else's home and life. How can one not be bitter to be on the short end of the deal when it all goes wrong?
Oh completely, but it should never be forgotten that our “asset” is someone else’s life and home and with that in mind, mutual respect and open, honest communication it should not have to go wrong. It’s really unfortunate that people (both tenants and landlords) lose the human element in all this.
I think a large part of the loss of the human element is most likely down to lettings agents. They truly are out to stitch both sides of the deal up.
I'm not being horrible but the reason you can't afford your own home is precisely nothing in the fault of the landlords who provide you with somewhere to live at all.
In life there'll always be situations where we rent things and where we buy things, homes included. It makes no sense to hate the people who provide a service in exchange for money. It's what money is for.
What makes you say that landlords don't earn the funds that paid for their own home? Do you believe that all domestic landlords are dukes and barons?
You are so full of hate that you can't see the wood for the trees. I think you don't know what you're arguing about or for, you just want to rationalise your frustration in your living situation by putting a face on it and hating that face.
Were they paying the rent?
Yes they continued paying rent throughout. They just wanted to be rehoused by council and we needed the property back. We were not on bad terms with the tenant.
That's good I call those casual evictions
What would happen if they did not pay rent? Would you be able to recoup it
Not likely, given the tenant household had no assets and by the end of the tenancy was getting majority of rent paid by benefits we believe given that they had started wla full time uni course. Hence they could be housed by the council after this and that is what they are going for.
So this is the issue even with S8 for rent arrears, with the state of the court and bailiffs delays you would be looking at 6 month minimum of lost rent for the most simple of S8 evictions.
Thanks for this
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You should write to the local MP
They can try out their new shredder
If there was a court hearing I assume you didn't use the accelerated possession order process, which would have been faster.
We did use accelerated possession, but the tenant was advised by the council case worker to challenge, mainly on the grounds of not having a selective licence (we did, the council had just put the postcode in found multiple licences and then failed to scroll down). So it went to hearing.
Just wondering... The tenant wants to be housed by the council (family is growing), but the council wants them evicted first. Landlord obliges by issuing S21: council wants this drawn out and we get a lengthy process. How is this going to work once S21 is got rid of (which seems v. likely). What will tenants do then? Cause S8 criteria?
The real issue is councils not stepping up to their responsibilities...
Real issue is that the Tories defunded councils so substantially during austerity etc. Most councils are on the edge financially already. How can they step up? So they manage it like they manage SEND related assessments etc. just dragging everything out as long as possible to minimise the hit and stretch their budgets as far as possible.
If we had c. 40% social housing like we did pre-1979 then the councils might actually be able to fulfill their statutory duties on housing in a meaningful way. But now they are just paying for families to sleep in 1 hotel room for several years.
Yes, it is both local and central government that should be stepping up. Selling off council housing stock is an issue of Maggie's making (I understand councils are restricted in "recycling" funds back into building).
Using hotels for extended periods is not a good use of council money and highly unsatisfactory for people who should have a proper home. Goodness only knows what happens to their health if they don't have a properly equipped kitchen. This and loading additional costs onto landlords, which ultimately feeds back into rent levels merely exasperates the whole rental sector.
Everyone loses out apart from the odd solicitor.
As an aside my council did not insist on having the bailiffs call, merely need the court to grant possession. Little time ago and I assume varies by council.
Yeah and I agree. We are probably looking at more S8s coming if families want to get councils to house them.
And they wonder why landlords don't want DSS tenants whilst giving out advice like this. Jokers.
Why does any of that mean that the tenant is on benefits, or were on benefits when they originally started renting? Also the DDS hasn’t existed since the 90s grandad
Yeah, shouldn't really have to though, eh? And something has to give as there's only so much time for hearings, so all it pushes out are those who aren't paying extra to jump the queue, they get delayed further. So the LL who pays extra gets a slightly earlier hearing and may save a bit on lost rent whilst the LL who waits for due process loses even more on rent, while the tenant and courts both whistle a happy tune.
The accelerated and standard processes cost the same amount. And there's no reason to assume there's any lost rent during a Section 21 process, if rent isn't being paid then Section 8 would be the appropriate route to use.
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For us since the tenant was paying rent and we were on good terms with the tenant, we wanted the property back for sale and they wanted housing by council, it was not too taxing on well being. We didn't have insurance, it was a 1.6kGBP eviction expense (2k overall but awarded costs of around £400) we won't recover, but the tenant had paid rent without issue for 6 years.
Insurance for what exactly?
400 pounds awarded for what exactly?
Some landlords take rent guarantee insurance which I believe includes costs for eviction processes.
The £400 we got awarded by the court against the tenant at the hearing relates to them losing the hearing essentially because the argument they put forward was nonsensical (sadly the council didn't help them and they had no representation on the day). The c. £400 came from a standard schedule of costs the county court uses. They rejected our itemised breakdown of costs presented by our representation which was c. £2k.
That insurance product is when a tenant does pay the rent and then they will proceed with evictings.
Your case was you wanted to sell property with vacant possession.
Sorry I was responding to the comment that has now been deleted. I was saying we didn't have insurance since they asked if we had insurance. I guess they thought the eviction was to do with rent arrears.
What was the nature of your S21 / given the length of time it took did you consider undoing the S21?
The tenant wanted housing by the council. We wanted the property back to sell. Since being a landlord of just a few properties makes no financial sense for us, and although we are fully managed on the tenancy, there is too much hassle related to the freehold management company for us (even though we have share of the freehold).
Out of interest why would we consider undoing the S21
That’s so depressing. Surely it doesn’t need to take so long.
As a landlord I would be much more flexible in who I rent to and would willingly accept a lot more regulation if I knew that the tenant had to uphold their side of their bargain too.
I really don’t understand why landlords get ‘the tenant’ and ‘the law’ confused in this way. Surely your issue should be with the law- long S21 processes and the fact that council’s won’t house tenants until bailiffs arrive- rather than with tenants for not leaving the instant a landlord files for a S21?
Like, if you had a job and your employer made you redundant, would you forfeit working your notice period (and getting paid for it) just to make things easier for your employer?
Well the tenant is the one doing the unethical thing. The law seems reasonably fine. The main problem is how long the process takes which seems needlessly drawn out.
How is the tenant being unethical for following the law? Would exactly the same thing not apply to an employee who stays working throughout their notice period?
A tenant who is overstaying or not paying is unethical to say the least.
No-one is discussing a tenant not paying. That is not what has happened to OP and is not relevant to S21- that’s S8.
Again, a tenant is not ‘overstaying’ for exercising their legal right. Is an employee ‘overstaying’ and taking advantage of their employer for working their notice period?
It’s very interesting how you seem completely unable to actually answer the question.
Unethical how ?
We were lucky getting the hearing date within 3 months really. The biggest delay was getting the date from the bailiffs.
County Courts are horrendous these days. Looks like you did well to get a court date so quickly.
I work in the social sector in the south east and we are looking at 3-6m+ to get to court on mandatory ground possession proceedings after a closure order.
The worse thing about the County Court was how many administrative mistakes they made, like sending us letters with the wrong dates for the hearing, which we luckily managed to catch by closely following up on discrepencies. They lost both the physical and electronic case bundle so the DJ had nothing to look at until we offered ours, but then hard to fight a case at the hearing when you don't have your bundle because the DJ has it so you struggle to be able to tell them which page to look at when they have questions etc. The eviction notice they also made a mistake on, but the tenant didn't notice, but someone who understood their rights would have realised.
Horrendous isn't it. Just underlines how futile any attempt at housing reform is pointless without fixing the court system
Congrats. Went through the same process, noticed given in Dec'22, got the flat back in Aug'24.
Was a DIY job on S21, NRLA website and tons of time reading online, saved me the sicitors costs.
Court hearing was in Nov'23, bailiffs letter went out in May'24, eviction in Aug'24.
Similarly was a friendly eviction as tenant wanted council housing, however his kids absolutely wrecked the place. £16k refurb on a 2 bed flat, from brand new kitchen appliances to new rads to new flooring put in.
New tenants in but with a UK based guarantor.
Will take 10 months just to recoup on 16k.
Yeah I'm interested in how landlords will manage risks in the future. I guess only accept people who either pass rent guarantee insurance or can provide a UK based guarantor who owns their own property, but I'm concerned this becomes a bit disciminatory. But appreciate most landlords can't take a risk anymore.
Personally for me had to have 5 years employment history, minimum 4x cover of income over rent, UK guarantor and no benefits being claimed. Was a DIY job on renting as well, but asked loads of questions at the viewings.
Great this is super helpful to know. Can I ask if you used NLRA's Full Tenant Check service to check for uncovering things like CCJs etc. or you just did total DIY?
Total DIY, but get viewers to bring their credit history file with them for viewings and credit file before signing the contract
Mate's got hmo properties, I leverage his knowledge and referencing firm.
Also have to provide random months payslips for past 3 years, I choose the months randomly. For contractors or SE, then tax returns and accountants letter confirming returns are genuine.
For guarantor use a referencing firm to do credit checks etc
This is all very helpful. Thanks for being so up for sharing.
No worries. Learnt it all the hard way on one of the flats, haven't had any issues with other ones, tenants appreciate a professional ll as well with clean, well maintained no issue properties.
Lastly I do quarterly checks of the properties, written in the contract and we agree the visit timing mutually convenient with first email a month out, then 2 friendly reminder confirming it at 2 and 1 week.
On the deposit don't usually deduct anything for wear and tear and anything non wear and tear gets usually gets caught up in the quarterly visits. For anything broken found during the checks (scratched and chipped flooring in 1, broken freezer bins in another), the tenants have option of either fixing it within 3 months or get told will be deducted from deposit.
For the flooring I provided them the specs, my contractors details or they were free to choose their own contractor, subject to my contractor reviewing the final work
Congrats! we have very similar eviction situation..Tenant was told to stay put until the bailiff day, but still pays it luckily.
Our eviction process still goes on.. NW London..
April 2024 - Accelerated application to court
June 2024- Requested a warrant of possession (county bailiffs) - there was no defence, and no hearing..
...still waiting for the eviction date..chasing up the court every 4 weeks...
Seems we would receive the eviction date soon based on your timeline..
I thought the bailiff appointment would be given 3–4 weeks in advance, but it turns out you were informed nearly 3 months ahead of time.
Did tenant literaly stayed till the bailiff arrive? Then given the keys and left? Did bailiff have to get into the property with you to double check remaining items etc?
And this is the accelerated process. The government do this deliberately
The courts and bailiffs system being dysfunctional is just part of the broader Tory austerity making every public service dysfunctional, I would describe it as a consequence of deliberate funding cuts.
It is not - The courts are packed because parking companies are suing everyone and judges are having to look at gas safety certificates and hearing argucments as to whether the EPC (the document which no one actually looks) was valid, served, received, signed for etc etc
Judges have becomes nothing short of admin paper pushers instead of dealing with real justice issues
The Tories literally sold off a third of county courts in England and Wales. They defunded it such that all front desks in all county courts have closed. They froze wages so courts can't recruit or retain competent admin people.
This is really helpful, thank you u/Dayfdd .
One of the really hard things to manage is the uncertainty. My solicitor tells me I will need to be at the 5-min hearing. But I do not know when it will be. So I am unable to make commitments and bookings that involve other people, or book flights etc. This affects both my business and my personal life.
This has been going on for months.
So the delay has all sorts of unwanted effects:
- I can't get my flat back, so I can't sell it
- I can't make travel or work plans, since I need to be available in London at 3 weeks notice for a very brief court hearing
- a difficult situation with the tenant continues, and there's nothing I can do, which is not good for my mental health.
I am never going to be a landlord again. I leave it to those for whom it is a full time job. I will take my flat off the rental market. That does not help the homeless, but I cannot go through this again.
I envy Ohio, USA. 1 day missed rent, 3 days later police are at the door guns drawn to evict.
I don't know where you heard that, but it's wrong and I hope you were being sarcastic. You don't get someone out in three days. After three days you can file in court. It's still a multi-week long process requiring court hearings. The sheriffs don't just show up at day 3 guns drawn.
See! It's multi week, not just days! :-)
FML it's years in the UK!